[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

I don’t know…there are plenty of gas hungry cars sold in the UK, including the larger models from BMW / Audi / MB / Jaguar / Lexus. There are some gas-guzzling cars that they have in the EU that are not brought to the US.

Jon.

I wonder what sort of volume BMW gets out of cars like the M3 and 330/325 in the European market. The IS350 isn't exactly a gas guzzler, but it's not frugal, either. Thing is, it doesn't have the outright exotic performance that might justify the expense of owning it.

One possible reason I can see for Lexus' hesitation is that the first generation IS300 was a miserable failure in Europe. The IS200 sold well, but the -300 was apparently hard sell (probably for fuel economy reasons).

[imageWIS]

Eh, the IS300 didn’t sell well anywhere, maybe if they would have given it a Toyota badge to wear…

Jon.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Oh, and BTW, they do sell the Lexus IS in the UK.

Lexus are nowhere compared to BMW within this sector. There's just no reason why BMW would be the least bit concerned by what Lexus do with the IS, which is a small niche model anywhere else apart from perhaps the US. BMW are far more concerned with pricing themselves against Audi, Mercedes and Porsche.

Much as the US is a large market for BMW, in fact their largest, they have many other markets that combined provide far greater influence on their strategy.

[3aficionado]

I seem to remember similar discussions in several forums before the e90 was release. They were saying how the entirely new engine with magnesium and aluminum would shoot the 3 series price into the stratosphere. When the e90 was released (in the US) it was just a few hundred more than the e46.

So now we have another new engine and discussions about the e92 with mentions of regular 3 series prices matching that of MB AMG models. The US market is always different than the rest of the world and the US buys the most 3er coupes. I will hold my judgments until I see the prices as I don’t think BMW wants to kill the 3er volume market sales (average US consumer who is price conscious – not us fanatics who would give an arm and a leg to drive a BMW).

There was one mention that I found interesting about moving the 3 coupe line up scale to make room for the 1er coupe. The 1er coupe may arrive to the US in a couple years. But the average US consumer will see no difference between the old 3er coupe at its current price and the new 3er coupe. We here know there are major upgrades… but the average consumer (bulk of sales) will just look at the badge and say “I’m not paying $8K more than last years model”. This is where BMW would need to use the 4er badge to differentiate the coupe from the sedan & old 3er coupes in order to move it upscale as many are predicting. Then the average US consumer will think “Oh, this is a new car and that’s why its so much more than previous years.”

I guess we will all have to wait for the next few months when the information is released.

[Steved]

Bear in mind that the US market represents in total just 25% of annual sales to BMW, with Western Europe making up 60% of total sales. Germany itself sells nearly as many units as the US and the UK sells 2/3rd as many cars as in the US. BMW will therefore choose their product and pricing strategies based on their total market, not just what the American consumer likes or dislikes.

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

I'm sick of just thinking about what the US pricing is going to be. I wish BMW would just come out of the closet of automotive mystery and just tell us all the damn information already!

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

But no, BMW simply doesn't care about me...or the rest of the enthusiast base that has routinely bought their cars for the past two decades. That much is obvious - look at how they've forced the new age style down our throats, turned the cars into bigger, more luxurious machines than we would prefer, catered the whims and wills of the greater majority of the buying public.

Ya' know, I heard the same type of things said not too long after I bought my first, the E46 323Ci (probably not too long after you got your 323):: The cars have become too isolated from the driver, too much electronics, drive-by-wire, etc. But here we are six years later & these forums are still jam-packed with both diehards & non-diehards and BMW is still selling cars hand-over-fist.

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

How many E90 owners on this forum are first time BMW buyers? Quite a few! How many previously owned an Asian built car? Quite a few! Sure, they all come in raving about "the drive" and all this other crap, but they wouldn't recognize an E21 if one fell on them, and they would probably complain about how noisy and rough the E30 is, or how heavy the steering is. One friend of mine has an E90 and loves to remind me of how rough and noisy my E46 - my dumbed down, mass market E46 - is! That's great - that's really great. But it's not me. And I'm not the only one. And please don't mistake me for that asshole who demands the world kiss his feet and cater to him because he gives them his money. I'm fully aware that my potential contribution is a metaphorical drop in the bucket.

To be honest, there's a growing minority of traditional BMW buyers who have written off the E90 and the 3 series entirely, and are pinning all of our hopes on the hatchback or coupe version of the 1 series. Here's to hoping we aren't disappointed there, too.

Well, being the owner of both the E46 & the E90 I have to agree & also disagree. There is definitely something about my 323Ci that the E90 just does not have. But I think I've come to realize that its just my perception. Hell, I considered the E39 a fabulous automobile in its day & I REALLY wanted an E60 instead of an E90. But I've found that I'm getting plenty of that substance from the E90, while still enjoying the nimbleness of a 3 Series (although somewhat subdued). They are all very different cars. Will the 1 Series fill the void for some? I can't imagine why not. And you know that that car is going to attract both new-comers & old-schoolers.

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

And I'll tell you something else - I'm really freaking sick of the attitude that BMW and their salesmen have. I've forgotten more about these cars - every model, line, engine, chassis code, wheel, options package - then most of them will ever know. And I seldom forget much. I don't think the E90 chassis itself warrants the money (which is why I simply won't buy the 325 or 330). I don't want to spend tens of thousands of dollars for something different. I want something better.

Until you drive your 323, or that nice looking E39 in the background of your signature, or that 335 that's being brewed. Then I'll bet you'll forget Lexus pretty quick. But I don't think you'll have to spend crazy money for what you want, just not as little as some are postulating.
Let's just wait & see..

[Brett]

You people worried about price (in the US) shouldn't be. If anything the base E92 335 will be at most a few thousand (<$5k) more than the base E46 330. And it is strongly rumored that this will include the premium package as part of the "base cost". In effect, seperating the car a little bit more from the sedan, but still giving a fair price.

Don't bother using foreign estimates to determine the prices, as they are priced much cheaper in the states and with better options. And futhermore, the foreign estimates are just that "estimates", nothing official has been announced, so calm down.

-Brett

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by imageWIS

Huh. I knew that the UK got the IS, but I did not know they withheld the 350. I wonder why?

Jon.

Probably because there is no manual transmission available......YET.

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by Steved

Bear in mind that the US market represents in total just 25% of annual sales to BMW, with Western Europe making up 60% of total sales. Germany itself sells nearly as many units as the US and the UK sells 2/3rd as many cars as in the US. BMW will therefore choose their product and pricing strategies based on their total market, not just what the American consumer likes or dislikes.

I was referring to the 3 coupe. Isn't the 3 coupe sales considerably larger in the US than anywhere else? Wouldn't this make BMW focus on this market when making 3 coupe decisions a little more if a considerable chunk of its sales comes from one country?

I am in no way claiming BMW is ignoring other countries. With such a large amount of sales from just one country a company must take that countries buying habits into consideration. If that country has different vehicle competition from the rest of the world it would make sense the pricing structure for that country would reflect this unique environment.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Steved

Lexus are nowhere compared to BMW within this sector. There's just no reason why BMW would be the least bit concerned by what Lexus do with the IS, which is a small niche model anywhere else apart from perhaps the US. BMW are far more concerned with pricing themselves against Audi, Mercedes and Porsche.

Much as the US is a large market for BMW, in fact their largest, they have many other markets that combined provide far greater influence on their strategy.

How are the japanese brands doing in england? Compare to BMW?

[Romulus]

can we get some mag scans yet?

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by Steved

Much as the US is a large market for BMW, in fact their largest, they have many other markets that combined provide far greater influence on their strategy.

This is why I think the idea of a US-market specific 3.5L engine is hogwash. The N54 is it.

Bear in mind that the US market represents in total just 25% of annual sales to BMW, with Western Europe making up 60% of total sales. Germany itself sells nearly as many units as the US and the UK sells 2/3rd as many cars as in the US. BMW will therefore choose their product and pricing strategies based on their total market, not just what the American consumer likes or dislikes.

But 25% is enormous. Like I said, I don't see BMW developing US-specific engines or models, but they will tailor their pricing and marketing to the US market. What happens in the UK or Germany in that regard is completely independant of what happens here. They've already done this in years past - we didn't get the E46 compact, we don't get the four cylinder cars and diesel engines and probably won't anytime soon. We don't even get many of the options and colors that you guys get. I can't help but wonder if this actually streamlines the ordering and production process for US cars, reducing cost...

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

But 25% is enormous. Like I said, I don't see BMW developing US-specific engines or models, but they will tailor their pricing and marketing to the US market. What happens in the UK or Germany in that regard is completely independant of what happens here. They've already done this in years past - we didn't get the E46 compact, we don't get the four cylinder cars and diesel engines and probably won't anytime soon. We don't even get many of the options and colors that you guys get. I can't help but wonder if this actually streamlines the ordering and production process for US cars, reducing cost...

My thoughts too.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by RichReg

Ya' know, I heard the same type of things said not too long after I bought my first, the E46 323Ci (probably not too long after you got your 323):: The cars have become too isolated from the driver, too much electronics, drive-by-wire, etc. But here we are six years later & these forums are still jam-packed with both diehards & non-diehards and BMW is still selling cars hand-over-fist.

Well, what BMW appears to be doing is this: dumbing the cars down enough to increase mass market appeal, without dumbing them down so much that the more enthusiast minded drivers will be unable to distinguish their cars from their competitor's cars. This process really did begin in earnest with the E46. The E36 was a great driver's car, but it had the downside in that it was almost an exercise in cost-cutting...how far could they push it? Thankfully, the E46 was a step up in quality and reliability (particularly electronically) from the E36. Let's just hope that the E90 continues this trend.

As much as I gripe about the E90, I will still readily admit that there's nothing else on the market that drives the way it does, let alone better...except, of course, the BMW's own direct predecessors. And if I was willing to drive an even older car, I wouldn't be thinking of selling my E46. Though if you ever come across a mint, low mileage, showroom condition E30 M3 in black or red, let me know.

Until you drive your 323, or that nice looking E39 in the background of your signature, or that 335 that's being brewed. Then I'll bet you'll forget Lexus pretty quick. But I don't think you'll have to spend crazy money for what you want, just not as little as some are postulating.
Let's just wait & see..

That E39 you speak of is one of the few 528i cars in the US that has a 5 speed manual. It's a lot of fun to drive. I think the E39 is one of the finest overall cars BMW has ever produced, in all respects...performance, appearance, value, and luxury..

The one thing that does benefit me price-wise is the fact that I don't load my cars down with options - especially German cars. It's well known that the German marques nickel and dime the hell out of their buyers, by offering an attractive base price and then charging ridiculous sums for various options. Since I don't buy these options, the fairly reasonable base price you see in commercials is usually about where I start to negotiate from.

I see most options (particularly electronic ones) as long term liabilities. I tested and confirmed the legitimacy of my theory by stripping the 323i of every single electronic option save the CD player. It has manual seats, manual transmission, manual dimming mirrors, and so forth...and the car seldom has issues, even two years out of warranty. I plan to take the same approach should I buy an E90. I'll probably even ask for a power seat delete.

Now, I did think I was done with BMW, until I actually tried to buy the IS350 and found out that I couldn't order it to my specifications. Want HID? Need to buy a $4000 package. Sport package is $3000 and to my knowledge is mostly a set of gimmicky trim pieces and whatnot...at least BMW gives you seats and a steering wheel in addition to the suspension.

[SapphireBlackG01]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

Well, what BMW appears to be doing is this: dumbing the cars down enough to increase mass market appeal, without dumbing them down so much that the more enthusiast minded drivers will be unable to distinguish their cars from their competitor's cars. This process really did begin in earnest with the E46. The E36 was a great driver's car, but it had the downside in that it was almost an exercise in cost-cutting...how far could they push it? Thankfully, the E46 was a step up in quality and reliability (particularly electronically) from the E36. Let's just hope that the E90 continues this trend.

As much as I gripe about the E90, I will still readily admit that there's nothing else on the market that drives the way it does, let alone better...except, of course, the BMW's own direct predecessors. And if I was willing to drive an even older car, I wouldn't be thinking of selling my E46. Though if you ever come across a mint, low mileage, showroom condition E30 M3 in black or red, let me know.

That E39 you speak of is one of the few 528i cars in the US that has a 5 speed manual. It's a lot of fun to drive. I think the E39 is one of the finest overall cars BMW has ever produced, in all respects...performance, appearance, value, and luxury..

The one thing that does benefit me price-wise is the fact that I don't load my cars down with options - especially German cars. It's well known that the German marques nickel and dime the hell out of their buyers, by offering an attractive base price and then charging ridiculous sums for various options. Since I don't buy these options, the fairly reasonable base price you see in commercials is usually about where I start to negotiate from.

I see most options (particularly electronic ones) as long term liabilities. I tested and confirmed the legitimacy of my theory by stripping the 323i of every single electronic option save the CD player. It has manual seats, manual transmission, manual dimming mirrors, and so forth...and the car seldom has issues, even two years out of warranty. I plan to take the same approach should I buy an E90. I'll probably even ask for a power seat delete.

Now, I did think I was done with BMW, until I actually tried to buy the IS350 and found out that I couldn't order it to my specifications. Want HID? Need to buy a $4000 package. Sport package is $3000 and to my knowledge is mostly a set of gimmicky trim pieces and whatnot...at least BMW gives you seats and a steering wheel in addition to the suspension.

I can understand, and to a certain extent, agree with everything you've said.

Until you get to the part about trying to buy an IS350. I respect your opinions more than the opinions of the vast majority of posters here on E90Post and E46Fantics, but I can't see how you can gripe about BMW numbing and dumbing down their cars (which I can agree with) and then turn around and seriously consider purchasing an IS350 in your search for a "better" (your words, not mine) driver's car?

I'm not hating... but I'm curious as to the logic. Maybe you see something that I don't? Good luck with your hunt, either way.

[mrbelk]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

But 25% is enormous. Like I said, I don't see BMW developing US-specific engines or models, but they will tailor their pricing and marketing to the US market. What happens in the UK or Germany in that regard is completely independant of what happens here. They've already done this in years past - we didn't get the E46 compact, we don't get the four cylinder cars and diesel engines and probably won't anytime soon. We don't even get many of the options and colors that you guys get. I can't help but wonder if this actually streamlines the ordering and production process for US cars, reducing cost...

BMWNA already got a "custom" engine in the form of the current E90 325 motor, with a dumbed down intake and ECU to meet EPA emissions requirements. BMWNA definitely has some pull in the "vaterland." How else do you explain the M5 getting a 6speed manual? The Euros weren't the ones clamoring for it, it was a very vocal minority in the US.

It's not BMWAG that sets US pricing, it's BMWNA. I have to think that the bottom line base price and options pricing (all options are ultimately sold ala carte, BMWNA just bundles certain of them into packages and offers a fairly small subset of the others ala carte) are the same regardless of the market. When the order finally gets from the dealer to BMWAG, the packages and options have been deconstructed down to the most granular level. Since the assembly lines are all based on "just in time" inventory, I doubt if cars destined for the USA are any "easier" to build than a totally ala carte built car destined for someone in Germany.

BMWNA so severely limits the options and colors available to those of us in the US thanks to all the silly consumer protection laws here that allow someone to walk away from a purple/yellow car with no consequence to them, but leaving a dealership with a vehicle that will never sell. The limit the engine choices because in their eyes, BMW is a luxury brand (and you don't put 4-bangers is a "luxury car"), where in europe, BMW is simply a "premium" brand.

-MrB

[SapphireBlackG01]

I reallly, really hope ZSG turns out well.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

How are the japanese brands doing in england? Compare to BMW?

Unlike the US, over here in Europe the Japanese brands tend to fall into 3 categories; family/small cars (which are mostly the Toyota/Honda/Mazda models); Luxury cars (i.e. Lexus GS and LS) and then Sports (Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi EVO, Nissan 350Z). Honda sell very few S2000s and NSXs (although both are being canned). Infiniti which are the sporting brand of Nissan, don't really exist over here.

Japanese brands don't offer a competitive model in the Sports Saloon category to compete with top 3 series or any of the M models. Neither do they compete in the performance SUV market with the X5. There has been the S2000 competing with the Z4, but there's nothing much to compete with the 6-series.

Maybe BMW have had it easy compared to other less sporting brands, but they're not threatened in the European market by a Japanese brand. Most of their competition comes from within their German heartland.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

This is why I think the idea of a US-market specific 3.5L engine is hogwash. The N54 is it.

But 25% is enormous. Like I said, I don't see BMW developing US-specific engines or models, but they will tailor their pricing and marketing to the US market. What happens in the UK or Germany in that regard is completely independant of what happens here. They've already done this in years past - we didn't get the E46 compact, we don't get the four cylinder cars and diesel engines and probably won't anytime soon. We don't even get many of the options and colors that you guys get. I can't help but wonder if this actually streamlines the ordering and production process for US cars, reducing cost...

You're right of course, The US represents 25%, Germany around 23% and the UK about 15%, but BMW are a better managed business these days (and much larger) and are less likely to develop specific products for one market. The problem they face in fact is to reduce the number of variations in their product lines and achieve more production synergies. This drives value far more than the revenues they would gain from adding a completely unique market-specific engine.

Unfortunately it is more likely that the US will be 'denied' a product (as with the E46 CSL) than gain an alternative, but hopefully that won't apply to the 335i.

[imageWIS]

Originally Posted by 3aficionado

I seem to remember similar discussions in several forums before the e90 was release. They were saying how the entirely new engine with magnesium and aluminum would shoot the 3 series price into the stratosphere. When the e90 was released (in the US) it was just a few hundred more than the e46.

So now we have another new engine and discussions about the e92 with mentions of regular 3 series prices matching that of MB AMG models. The US market is always different than the rest of the world and the US buys the most 3er coupes. I will hold my judgments until I see the prices as I don’t think BMW wants to kill the 3er volume market sales (average US consumer who is price conscious – not us fanatics who would give an arm and a leg to drive a BMW).

There was one mention that I found interesting about moving the 3 coupe line up scale to make room for the 1er coupe. The 1er coupe may arrive to the US in a couple years. But the average US consumer will see no difference between the old 3er coupe at its current price and the new 3er coupe. We here know there are major upgrades… but the average consumer (bulk of sales) will just look at the badge and say “I’m not paying $8K more than last years model”. This is where BMW would need to use the 4er badge to differentiate the coupe from the sedan & old 3er coupes in order to move it upscale as many are predicting. Then the average US consumer will think “Oh, this is a new car and that’s why its so much more than previous years.”

I guess we will all have to wait for the next few months when the information is released.

I can see it now: a person walks into the showroom and asks to see a 3-series coupe. The salesperson relies that it’s now called a 4-series. He then proceeds to show the customer the car and the window sticker. The price is now several thousand more than last years model, prompting the customer to ask the salesperson why the car is so expensive in relativity to the old model. And the salesperson will explain that “this is a new car and that’s why its so much more than previous years”.

You think the customer will buy that line of bullshit?

As well, they want to move the 3-series up market by introducing the 1-series in the US. Has anyone actually seen the 1? It’s a joke. It’s smaller than a VW Golf (MKV) but costs about +10% more and from what I noticed is not as well made or finished as the 3-series (at least the front looks better than the new 3). Plus, Americans don’t like hatchbacks, they like sedans and coupes, especially when it comes to BMW’s, thus the 1-Series is going to be a hard sell in the US.

Jon.

[0700700]

90 replies and no one even bothered to scan the article and post it ?