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      08-09-2018, 07:40 AM   #1
Matticus91
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Angry DIY Catless DP Epic Failure

Story time. "Tonight is the night." Or at least that's what I told myself yesterday. I was going to tackle DIY'ing a catless DP by removing my stocker and emptying it of its sinfully restrictive materials.

Get home, all set up, bolts on the mids have been soaking in PB for a few hours... I even took a wire brush to them to try to knock off some of the rust.

Finally go to get started with my trusty 12mm wrench and it doesn't even fit over the corrosion. Ok, not a huge deal, what's the next closest? I grab a 1/2" and it fits nice and snug, and then almost immediately snap a stud. Ok, no biggie, it happens. On to the next, and I feel it start to twist so I back off. Sure enough the stud has twisted, can't even see the threads the rust is so bad. Move on to number 3 and the thing falls apart, completely rounded the top just with a wrench!

Now in full huff n' puff mode I see things aren't going my way and I've not even gotten to the v-band yet. I begrudgingly make the decision to pack up and in the process bump the side of my car with the spine of my laptop, which is like a ****ing serrated knife (Surface Book), and put two small holes in the wrap on the rear quarter panel. Of course the biggest damn section on the car.

So in 2 hours, what should have been a fairly straightforward process ended with a 0% success, a snapped stud, a stripped stud, and two holes in my newly finished wrap.

Taking the car to a friend at a BMW dealership today to get the DP taken out so I can go all Office Space on it and have new hardware installed. Going to have to cut off the remaining nuts and drill out the studs. Why BMW would use such unbelievably shit hardware on this is beyond me.

Here's one of the offending nuts so you can get an idea for how bad the rust was, you literally can't make out the threads and this was after a ton of PB and wire-brushing:
20180808_175623 by Matt Steele, on Flickr
20180808_175627 by Matt Steele, on Flickr
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      08-09-2018, 07:51 AM   #2
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I was overwhelmingly unsuccessful with those bolts too after soaking them for a week with pb blaster. I said the hell with it and dropped it with the midpipe and cut it off.
What hardware are you replacing them with?
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      08-09-2018, 08:06 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by YearOneOne View Post
I was overwhelmingly unsuccessful with those bolts too after soaking them for a week with pb blaster. I said the hell with it and dropped it with the midpipe and cut it off.
What hardware are you replacing them with?
Yeah I have a feeling we're not alone in this lol. I haven't seen stuff that rusted in a long time. Crazy thing is that the entire undercarriage of my car is spotless, no rust at all, except these damn exhaust studs.

Smart to drop the whole thing, that might be what my guy does. Just replacing with OEM hardware if possible, otherwise I'll get something from the hardware store that fits and just use new OEM gaskets.
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      08-09-2018, 08:49 AM   #4
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Exhaust work on the floor is brutal. Expect to have to use the hot wrench.
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      08-09-2018, 09:01 AM   #5
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Exhaust work on the floor is brutal. Expect to have to use the hot wrench.
Lol I was real close to trying to cut everything out but I don't have the room to do that kind of stuff. I need to find a better way to get my car higher off the ground, my jack doesn't go that high.
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      08-09-2018, 09:26 AM   #6
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I never had luck with any of my exhaust bolts. I usually end up cutting a few off, no matter which car I'm working on. I would guess it's probably related to a chemical reaction with exhaust gasses rather than straight rust. I replaced them with the highest grade stainless I could find, but I wonder if they would't work better with a titanium alloy.
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      08-09-2018, 09:59 AM   #7
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Thumbs up simply for the phrase "full huff n' puff mode"

Oh, and sorry to hear ya got yer ass kicked
Clearly there wasn't enough alcohol involved!
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      08-09-2018, 10:21 AM   #8
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The exhaust studs on my N51 were like that when I tried to do headers. After spending hours getting 7 of them out (there are 16), I put them back in and brought it to a shop. Replacement studs for the N51 were $19 off FCPEuro so it makes sense to replace these parts. My shop put the old rusty studs/nuts back on and kept the bag of new studs I gave them. Not going back there again!

I think heat speeds up the rusting process. So it's not that this is necessarily shitty hardware, it's just in such a hot environment that it rusts very quickly compared to other cooler parts on the car. I think they should just not be using steel at all for exhaust components that close to the engine. Not sure if titanium is the right material or something else. I understand why BMW uses steel though. 99% of cars will have the stock downpipe on until the car is junked, so spending $20 more per car to accommodate the few who will mod doesn't make sense.
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      08-09-2018, 10:28 AM   #9
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Whenever I do exhaust work I always order new bolts and nuts because they are always a pain.

On my Z3 they used inconel bolts which were $25 each. I jacked the car, sprayed them and was planning to repeat a few times letting them soak over night. Car was about 10yrs old but had never seen winter. After 30 min I couldnt resist and just put a wrench to one, it came out so easy as did all the others, I was shocked. These were the bolts on the pipes connecting to the manifold also, as the exhaust was one giant piece tips to manifold.

Now on my E34 540 exhaust I will be installing next month, its cat back. I am putting a socket on my 1400lb Milwaukee 1/2 impact and just going to power snap them or by some miracle they might come off nicely.
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      08-09-2018, 10:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bagekko View Post
...putting a socket on my 1400lb Milwaukee 1/2 impact and just going to power snap them or by some miracle they might come off nicely.

Same way I do it- good, bad or ugly, it's over quickly and the job can progress...

.
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      08-09-2018, 10:34 AM   #11
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I cut mine off....after about a five minute fight with them. I used these as replacements - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I haven't had a look to see how they are doing but they've been on there about 4 months I guess. If I remember I'll look later and report back on the corrosion situation.
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      08-09-2018, 11:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderguts View Post
I never had luck with any of my exhaust bolts. I usually end up cutting a few off, no matter which car I'm working on. I would guess it's probably related to a chemical reaction with exhaust gasses rather than straight rust. I replaced them with the highest grade stainless I could find, but I wonder if they would't work better with a titanium alloy.
I'm going to hit the hardware store and see if I can do the same, totally worth a few extra bucks to not worry about this as much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1and1 View Post
Thumbs up simply for the phrase "full huff n' puff mode"

Oh, and sorry to hear ya got yer ass kicked
Clearly there wasn't enough alcohol involved!
That's exactly the problem, there was NO alcohol involved lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowsdower View Post
The exhaust studs on my N51 were like that when I tried to do headers. After spending hours getting 7 of them out (there are 16), I put them back in and brought it to a shop. Replacement studs for the N51 were $19 off FCPEuro so it makes sense to replace these parts. My shop put the old rusty studs/nuts back on and kept the bag of new studs I gave them. Not going back there again!

I think heat speeds up the rusting process. So it's not that this is necessarily shitty hardware, it's just in such a hot environment that it rusts very quickly compared to other cooler parts on the car. I think they should just not be using steel at all for exhaust components that close to the engine. Not sure if titanium is the right material or something else. I understand why BMW uses steel though. 99% of cars will have the stock downpipe on until the car is junked, so spending $20 more per car to accommodate the few who will mod doesn't make sense.
I feel for you man that sounds like a terrible project lol. The heat definitely doesn't help anything when it comes to corrosion, hopefully some new hardware will stick around longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagekko View Post
Whenever I do exhaust work I always order new bolts and nuts because they are always a pain.

On my Z3 they used inconel bolts which were $25 each. I jacked the car, sprayed them and was planning to repeat a few times letting them soak over night. Car was about 10yrs old but had never seen winter. After 30 min I couldnt resist and just put a wrench to one, it came out so easy as did all the others, I was shocked. These were the bolts on the pipes connecting to the manifold also, as the exhaust was one giant piece tips to manifold.

Now on my E34 540 exhaust I will be installing next month, its cat back. I am putting a socket on my 1400lb Milwaukee 1/2 impact and just going to power snap them or by some miracle they might come off nicely.
Had to look that alloy up, very interesting. Not worth it for this kind of thing IMO but good to know the option is there! I used my impact on the bastard and it was still fighting me. I think it's "only" rated for 800ft-lbs though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandinca View Post
I cut mine off....after about a five minute fight with them. I used these as replacements - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I haven't had a look to see how they are doing but they've been on there about 4 months I guess. If I remember I'll look later and report back on the corrosion situation.
Those look good and I'd probably have ordered the full set online with gaskets and such but since I'm on a tight time table I'm heading to the dealership in a bit to get the vband and gaskets. New hardware will come from the hardware store, will have to keep an eye on it and swap it out if it starts to look like crap again.
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      08-09-2018, 11:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandinca View Post
I cut mine off....after about a five minute fight with them. I used these as replacements - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...UTF8&psc=1
I haven't had a look to see how they are doing but they've been on there about 4 months I guess. If I remember I'll look later and report back on the corrosion situation.
Please get back to us. I am changing my dp back to stock for emissions and I want to switch to something that won't be such a problem
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      08-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #14
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You gave up that easily? I'm glad I learned car work when I was poor. No other options but press on thru shit like that.
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      08-09-2018, 01:12 PM   #15
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Just so we don't feel alone, the exhaust stud breakage problem is a constant discussion on the Chevrolet Colorado forum. And I bet on many other forums as well.
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      08-09-2018, 01:46 PM   #16
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Happens on pretty much all vehicles. The zinc plated bolts linked above may work. The principal is the zinc is a sacrificial material that oxidizes readily preventing oxidation of the steel. It works as long as it stays intact. If you scratch if off, the steel can still rust.

Common "stainless steel" is 304 which will rust, just much more slowly than carbon steel. If you really want hardware that unlikely to rust, you could use 316. If has much more chrome in it and is thus much more rust resistant. McMaster Carr probably has them. Their website is a little quirky but they give good service.
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      08-09-2018, 01:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
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McMaster Carr probably has them. Their website is a little quirky but they give good service.
+1 I just used McMaster Carr for hardware for my RSFB tool and found the whole process easy and far higher quality hardware than anything you’ll find in your typical hardware store. They are not consumer oriented but will do small orders. Check them out!
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      08-09-2018, 02:18 PM   #18
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Yup I had to do the same back then when I was like WTF are the bolts $25 each, now they are prolly $40+. I still have the old ones as they were in good shape, perhaps I should use for a future project.

The main problems with any bolts along the manifold and exhaust is the heat they experience, thats why a lot of times they use copper or copper coated nuts because with the heat and exposure to the elements they wont rust like steel and disintegrate or seize up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus91 View Post
Had to look that alloy up, very interesting. Not worth it for this kind of thing IMO but good to know the option is there! I used my impact on the bastard and it was still fighting me. I think it's "only" rated for 800ft-lbs though.
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      08-09-2018, 02:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
You gave up that easily? I'm glad I learned car work when I was poor. No other options but press on thru shit like that.
I only have one car, so "pressing on" is not really an option if continuing at it means the car won't be driveable since I'd need to get new hardware, and a couple tools. Plus, the tools I'd need (stripped bolt extractors, another extension, and I don't even know how I'd get the top bolts out) cost nearly what it's going to cost me to have my friend take it off for me, so I'm not spending much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
Happens on pretty much all vehicles. The zinc plated bolts linked above may work. The principal is the zinc is a sacrificial material that oxidizes readily preventing oxidation of the steel. It works as long as it stays intact. If you scratch if off, the steel can still rust.

Common "stainless steel" is 304 which will rust, just much more slowly than carbon steel. If you really want hardware that unlikely to rust, you could use 316. If has much more chrome in it and is thus much more rust resistant. McMaster Carr probably has them. Their website is a little quirky but they give good service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowsdower View Post
+1 I just used McMaster Carr for hardware for my RSFB tool and found the whole process easy and far higher quality hardware than anything you’ll find in your typical hardware store. They are not consumer oriented but will do small orders. Check them out!
Thanks for the tips guys will take a look!
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      08-09-2018, 03:45 PM   #20
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I had the same problem when trying to do my super sprint mids. I snapped one and stopped and they've been sitting in the garage ever since.

Shame about the wrap getting messed up. But at least it wasn't the paint.
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      08-09-2018, 04:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matticus91 View Post
I only have one car, so "pressing on" is not really an option if continuing at it means the car won't be driveable since I'd need to get new hardware, and a couple tools. Plus, the tools I'd need (stripped bolt extractors, another extension, and I don't even know how I'd get the top bolts out) cost nearly what it's going to cost me to have my friend take it off for me, so I'm not spending much more.
You can afford a bmw (a MODDED bmw), so rent a car. It's really cheap.

And you're looking at the tool / repair tradeoff wrong. Tools are always worth buying. It's ALWAYS better to spend the money on tools that will continue giving you pleasure, than on a one-time job.
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      08-10-2018, 01:52 AM   #22
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Sorry to hear about your car woes, Matt. Also, I'd be interested in seeing what happened to your wrap (with your laptop), should you decide to take any pics of it.
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