More swirls everytime I wash

[BlackjackMulligan]

Originally Posted by Envious Eric

couple of things....

keeping a DD car 100% is not a good option, especially JB! 95-90% is more than suitable for a car that gets washed weekly or even two times a week. When you start getting super mad at swirls on your DD car, you are going to drive yourself insane. A weekend car or a show car, well that's a different story! Whats really sad though, I have seen a lot of show cars where a well maintained DD looks better than the show car!!!

Next, if you are really concerned, you need to figure out if its the washing part or the drying part that is inducing the swirl marks. Wipe dirt away in a left to right fashion, and dry the car in a up and down fashion. This way you will be able to follow which way is inflicting the damage.

another thing, you can always use the sheeting method and remove about 75% of the water from the car before even touching it with a towel. Then, take some QD and spritz the panel you are about to dry to add a layer between the paint and the towel, and add some gloss to the paint as well.

keep on a good routine/regimen
wash weekly
wax every 3 months
polish every 6
recondition every 12

You're absolutely right about the DD not being perfect. I think I've finally gotten myself around to accepting this.

However, the point is, that even for a DD this paint is ridiculously easy to swirl. I use the 2BM, all high quality stuff and polish 2x per year, and I have swirls like most other cars would have with the owner only giving half the effort to avoid them that I am. Doesn't matter what you do, you're going to introduce swirls.

So you just have to learn to live with them! I'm going to try out a glaze this year and see how it works out covering up some stuff. It's Chemical Guys EZ Creme Glaze. When the weather warms up I'll report back.

[Envious Eric]

use that with a blue pad and work it in. Then apply blackfire wet diamond to the paint for durable protection! It will also add a little gloss and wetness to the paint!

[BlackjackMulligan]

Originally Posted by Envious Eric

use that with a blue pad and work it in. Then apply blackfire wet diamond to the paint for durable protection! It will also add a little gloss and wetness to the paint!

that's my plan. In addition, I'm going to try out a coat of dodo juice purple haze on top of the blackfire for that extra bit of protection.

[Badawe]

I am an owner of a JB 135i that is also driving me insane! I get depressed every time I get the car washed and I live in a country that gets dust storms every week or two which is absolutely making it impossible for me to maintain a swirl free paint

I have tried MF towels and wash mitts and I still get swirls no matter what I do.. I wouldn’t mind paying a pro to keep correcting my paint for me every now and then but I haven’t found a single decent detailing shop here so far!

I was wondering if anyone here has thought about getting a harder clear coat applied to their car or even repainting the whole car to BSM which I believe is less prone to swirls??

[Stratos]

After a harsh winter in Norway, my car is a swirlmobile. Happens every year, only thing i can do is try to minimize it, and do a full detail every spring.

(It's like car-christmas when the summer wheels come on, and the car is detailed and ready for summer!!)

[Badawe]

Originally Posted by Badawee

I am an owner of a JB 135i that is also driving me insane! I get depressed every time I get the car washed and I live in a country that gets dust storms every week or two which is absolutely making it impossible for me to maintain a swirl free paint

I have tried MF towels and wash mitts and I still get swirls no matter what I do.. I wouldn’t mind paying a pro to keep correcting my paint for me every now and then but I haven’t found a single decent detailing shop here so far!

I was wondering if anyone here has thought about getting a harder clear coat applied to their car or even repainting the whole car to BSM which I believe is less prone to swirls??

Guys, can any of you help me out here? do you think its worth doing a major job like getting a harder clear coat or a repaint??

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Badawee

Guys, can any of you help me out here? do you think its worth doing a major job like getting a harder clear coat or a repaint??

No, it's not. What you're experiencing is simply a non-metallic paint reflecting better, more linear reflections than a metallic paint. It is not a softer clear coat than the metallics, it's simply more visible. Reread this thread, there are lots of good ideas about how to minimize swirls. The only one I haven't seen is to consider an inline water filter on your washing hose. Some places with hard water have enough mineral content that it can lead to surface marring.

I've dealt with all kinds of solid black paints, from older, single stage oil and water based paints, to just about every modern brand with clear coats. BMW really isn't any worse than any of them, and is certainly better than many. If you've only had lighter colors and metallics before, you just need to learn to take better care of solid black paint. Your old paint looked just as bad, it just didn't reflect as clearly.

For the record, BSM can look just as swirled, and like most darker metallics, can get the halo effect pretty easily. Plus, even at its cleanest, it still looks dirty. Metallic paints look great in some hues, but I've never been a fan of metallic blacks. They're just as much maintenance without the ability to really shine like a solid color.

[Badawe]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

No, it's not. What you're experiencing is simply a non-metallic paint reflecting better, more linear reflections than a metallic paint. It is not a softer clear coat than the metallics, it's simply more visible. Reread this thread, there are lots of good ideas about how to minimize swirls. The only one I haven't seen is to consider an inline water filter on your washing hose. Some places with hard water have enough mineral content that it can lead to surface marring.

I've dealt with all kinds of solid black paints, from older, single stage oil and water based paints, to just about every modern brand with clear coats. BMW really isn't any worse than any of them, and is certainly better than many. If you've only had lighter colors and metallics before, you just need to learn to take better care of solid black paint. Your old paint looked just as bad, it just didn't reflect as clearly.

For the record, BSM can look just as swirled, and like most darker metallics, can get the halo effect pretty easily. Plus, even at its cleanest, it still looks dirty. Metallic paints look great in some hues, but I've never been a fan of metallic blacks. They're just as much maintenance without the ability to really shine like a solid color.

Thanks for the advice man, its true, I've only had lighter metallic colors on my previous rides and i've never had any experience with solid black.. I guess thats my problem.

I'll try to hand wash the car from now on and see how that goes, maybe i'll even try the inline filter on the washing hose.. I first need to correct the paint though as its in a pretty bad shape now but I havent found any good detailers here.. should I just buy a polisher (read good things about the flex) and some polish and start doing my own detailing instead??

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Badawee

Thanks for the advice man, its true, I've only had lighter metallic colors on my previous rides and i've never had any experience with solid black.. I guess thats my problem.

I'll try to hand wash the car from now on and see how that goes, maybe i'll even try the inline filter on the washing hose.. I first need to correct the paint though as its in a pretty bad shape now but I havent found any good detailers here.. should I just buy a polisher (read good things about the flex) and some polish and start doing my own detailing instead??

I forgot where you were. Didn't you post about sand storms the other day? It's bad pollen season here, and my cars are parked outside at night, so they're green every morning. I use a California Car Duster, but even that leaves minor marring. But it sure is nice to keep the car looking clean for longer.

I know it's a lot of work to keep a relatively swirl free finish, but if you have the time and patience to do it yourself and stay on top of things, it's really not that bad. I'd recommend either a Flex or a Porter Cable &424 XP, both are great for correcting swirl marks and even minor scratches. You can always get a rotary later, if you feel the need. I'm not sure what your access to product is like, but I've had great luck with Menzerna polishes and Lake Country pads with my Porter Cable.

[Badawe]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I forgot where you were. Didn't you post about sand storms the other day? It's bad pollen season here, and my cars are parked outside at night, so they're green every morning. I use a California Car Duster, but even that leaves minor marring. But it sure is nice to keep the car looking clean for longer.

I know it's a lot of work to keep a relatively swirl free finish, but if you have the time and patience to do it yourself and stay on top of things, it's really not that bad. I'd recommend either a Flex or a Porter Cable &424 XP, both are great for correcting swirl marks and even minor scratches. You can always get a rotary later, if you feel the need. I'm not sure what your access to product is like, but I've had great luck with Menzerna polishes and Lake Country pads with my Porter Cable.

Its horrible man, sand storms are a killer... they last for days at times

I'll be getting a duster (already on my to buy list) and I have to order everything I want for the car online (I cant seem to find anything that I want here) and get it shipped over which sucks because shipping charges are killing me!

+1 on the Menzerna polishes and lake country pads, I've read so many great things about them

Would a PC be enough for me to start with?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Badawee

Would a PC be enough for me to start with?

Oh yeah, it's a great machine. The Flex has a few nice features, like a little more speed and a better grip design, but you wouldn't really miss them if you don't any better.

The PC is great and can even do minor scratch repairs with wool pads and fairly aggressive compounds. To be honest, I haven't used my rotary on many cars that are less than ten years old, my PC covers minor issues very well and leaves a much higher margin of error than a rotary.

I assume you know about autopia? It's a great forum and you might be able to search for any suppliers closer to you. Since Menzerna is German, I assume shipping from there would be a little less, no? Good luck, sounds like you're on the right track.

[Badawe]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Oh yeah, it's a great machine. The Flex has a few nice features, like a little more speed and a better grip design, but you wouldn't really miss them if you don't any better.

The PC is great and can even do minor scratch repairs with wool pads and fairly aggressive compounds. To be honest, I haven't used my rotary on many cars that are less than ten years old, my PC covers minor issues very well and leaves a much higher margin of error than a rotary.

I assume you know about autopia? It's a great forum and you might be able to search for any suppliers closer to you. Since Menzerna is German, I assume shipping from there would be a little less, no? Good luck, sounds like you're on the right track.

Appreciate all your help

I'll do some more research and I'll have that credit card ready

[Red Bread]

Of course. Jet Black is such a great color, it's never fun to here of people struggling with it. Hopefully you get it to a point you're happy with it, feel free to ask any questions and let us know if you have any other issues.

Since you'll get murdered on shipping costs, is it worthwhile getting a car cover at the same time? Seems like it might help with the sand storms.

[vanbmw]

Originally Posted by Badawee

Its horrible man, sand storms are a killer... they last for days at times

I'll be getting a duster (already on my to buy list) and I have to order everything I want for the car online (I cant seem to find anything that I want here) and get it shipped over which sucks because shipping charges are killing me!

+1 on the Menzerna polishes and lake country pads, I've read so many great things about them

Would a PC be enough for me to start with?

A good friend of mine flies for Emirates and lives in Dubai and I have talked to him about paint care over there. He had a metallic black M3. He said he found it too hot in summer month...the air conditioning couldn't keep up so he traded it for a white one last year. He said the California Duster is BAD over there. It works with dust but he said it will scratch the hell out of the paint if there is any sand on the car. He says there is ALWAYS sand on his car. He says he waxes often (wax doesn't last long in those temperatures) and washes with a foam gun in hopes of rinsing the sand off. He said he was able to keep the black M3 in good shape just using some polish and wax applying by hand so you should be fine with a PC. Good luck!

[HPFREAK]

After 8 months with my black 1er I am trying to come to acceptance with it being swirled and scratched. i simply so not ever have a entire day to devote to using my Flex on it and also it is too hard on my back to do that anyway. I am also constantly sore from training which does not help.

I was going to sink 450 bucks into a CR spotless system before I found out how bad my water is and that I would get less than 100 gallons of spotless water from it. With it being black and dirty all the time I wash it once a week or it looks like total hell after a week. The CR spotless would cost me 100 bucks a month to use and that is crazy to me. 1200 a year to wash a car is nuts.

I then looked into getting some ONR to use with my pressure washer foam gun and mix that into it and also use it after the final rinse while the car is still wet to spray on before drying on the advice of a few great detailers that have given up on their CR spotless systems.

I have great polishes and pads to usewith the FLex but I just do not have the time to devote to it which sucks. I wish I could of found a silver 135 and had someone slap me in the face when I decided getting a black one was a great idea.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Brad@PSI MOTORS

I was going to sink 450 bucks into a CR spotless system before I found out how bad my water is and that I would get less than 100 gallons of spotless water from it. With it being black and dirty all the time I wash it once a week or it looks like total hell after a week. The CR spotless would cost me 100 bucks a month to use and that is crazy to me. 1200 a year to wash a car is nuts.

Where are you in SoCal? I was in Laguna Beach, where the water was bad, but certainly not that bad. If you're getting bad swirls after every wash, you must still have something in your wash process that's introducing those swirls. I only do two polishes a year, and even at the end of each six months, it doesn't really show many swirls except under halogen lighting.

Make sure you're using good drying towels, that you're not using dryer sheets, that you have a rinse bucket, that your wash pad/mitt is not marring etc. One good test is to rub everything in your wash process over a cd to see if anything scratches that. Everything will to some degree, but you can limit how much marring you're introducing with each wash, something is clearly out of sorts in your process.

[HPFREAK]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Where are you in SoCal? I was in Laguna Beach, where the water was bad, but certainly not that bad. If you're getting bad swirls after every wash, you must still have something in your wash process that's introducing those swirls. I only do two polishes a year, and even at the end of each six months, it doesn't really show many swirls except under halogen lighting.

Make sure you're using good drying towels, that you're not using dryer sheets, that you have a rinse bucket, that your wash pad/mitt is not marring etc. One good test is to rub everything in your wash process over a cd to see if anything scratches that. Everything will to some degree, but you can limit how much marring you're introducing with each wash, something is clearly out of sorts in your process.

no it is just that black is really easy to scratch and several detailers I talked to told me it is impossible not to introduce scratches in the washing and drying process unless you never touch the car with a even a good MF towel. I have spent loads on high quality MF's and wash mitts. i use foam guns and it does not matter. The only way is to use a true spotless water system and a good air blower to avoid making more swirls.

FYI the water at my place is really bad. i had it tested and here are the results:

Grain level(Hardness) 15-very high

TDS levels - 625ppm(very bad)

As a comparison the guy told me that in Oregon their customers typically get around 1500-2000 gallons out of each resin refill with their DIC-20 unit and I would get less than 100 gallons.lol

We are getting Colorado river water and it is by far the worst the city said and they have no control over it. They must use it because of some EPA rule. My city will not be able to get water from another source for around 2-4 more years they said.



When I told the guy at CR spotless he flat out said it is not worth it unless you can can get away with washing your car only 1-2 times a month and it stays garaged most of the time and out of the rain and dirty areas of where I live. that is not possible since every damn day on every street there is some damn gardners blowing dirt all over the place. Also the building I work at has them come 2 times a week and they blower the fuckin dirt all over my car and I ask them to stop or to have them come well before 9am or after 5 and they said no. I am screwed no matter how I look at it. I kid you not that the day after I wash my car and go to work by the end of the day or in the moring I have a thin blanket of dust and dirt all over my car since I live in a mountain side with dust constantly an issue.


I would use my local self car wash that say they have spotless water but I have never seen any evidence that it is spotless at all. IF anyone knows of a good one near Burbank let me know.

[TOGWT]

[Its horrible man, sand storms are a killer... they last for days at times

I'll be getting a duster (already on my to buy list) and I have to order everything I want for the car online (I cant seem to find anything that I want here) and get it shipped over which sucks because shipping charges are killing me!]

Surface Dust

To remove light, dry surface dust or pollen without causing scratches; apply very little surface pressure and use a long nap micro fibre towel to ensure the dust lifted from the paint surface will remain in the nap and not on the towel surface thereby causing surface marring, use long strokes in one direction only. Use a product that contains a surfactant; this will lessen surface scratching as they ‘lift’ dust etc into the media used avoiding surface friction.

Use a solution of Optimum No-Rinse (ONR) diluted 1:20 / distilled water in a fine mist spray bottle. To renew the shine - Optimum QD don’t use on a hot paint surface (soon after driving) as this will cause streaking

Note -

Dust build-up-with low humidity conditions and friction on the paint surface will cause static electricity (this is exacerbated by the use of polyester (nylon) Micro fibre) resulting in dust attraction to the paint surface.
Unlike most other car dusters which are paraffin wax covered cotton fibres, the GP Wool Duster is an all-wool Australian pelt. Rather than relying on surface tension to hold on to dust, our wool duster simply uses static charges, created by twirling the duster in your hands, to safely lift dust from the surface. Almost no surface pressure is necessary to make it 100% effective. GP Australian Wool Duster

It important to use these methodologies only for the removal of dry surface dust, don’t use if surface has condensation or dew, or if the vehicle has oily road film, road tar, damp pollen or dust, etc in these instances the vehicle surface should be subjected to a conventional car washing process


An extract from one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn.

© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved

[TOGWT]

[I then looked into getting some ONR to use with my pressure washer foam gun and mix that into it and also use it after the final rinse while the car is still wet to spray on before drying on the advice of a few great detailers that have given up on their CR spotless systems.]

Hard Water

If you are using tap water that contains high levels of minerals such as calcium hydroxide or silicates, some of the polymers will bond to these minerals and take them out of solution therefore more product might be necessary to compensate for this effect. By adding Optimum No Rinse (ONR) to a regular car wash soap will improves the results when using tap water (0.5 oz / gallon) always add it to the water to remove the minerals before adding your soap. This will maximize the benefits of using No Rinse in this manner.

Water Supply Classifications (Water Quality Research Council)
• Soft Water- 0 to 1 grains per gallon
• Slightly Hard Water- 1 to 3.5 grains per gallon
• Moderately Hard Water- 3.5 to 7 grains per gallon
• Hard Water - 7 to 10.5 grains per gallon
• Very Hard Water - over 10.5 grains per gallon

Dilutions as per label
1. Car wash solution - 1oz / 2 gallons
2. Detailer’s clay lubrication - 2oz / gallon
3. Quick detailer (QD) - 8oz / gallon
4. Wet-sanding lubrication – 8oz / gallon

Note:
1. The use of ONR in a distilled water solution is an efficient method of cleaning as the polymers that are used to encapsulate soiling are not binding to any minerals found in ‘hard’ water, thereby losing some effectiveness.
2. A solution with the dilutions (ratios) suggested utilizing a 16oz spray bottle (128 oz = 1 Gallon) makes its application easier


An extract from one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn.

© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved

[HPFREAK]

So they want you to use 8lbs of ONR to 1 gallon of hard water to then either use as a detail spray in 16oz bottles or for washing your car with a bucket of that solution? What am I missing here? Seems like overkill on the ONR.

Originally Posted by TOGWT

[I then looked into getting some ONR to use with my pressure washer foam gun and mix that into it and also use it after the final rinse while the car is still wet to spray on before drying on the advice of a few great detailers that have given up on their CR spotless systems.]

Hard Water

If you are using tap water that contains high levels of minerals such as calcium hydroxide or silicates, some of the polymers will bond to these minerals and take them out of solution therefore more product might be necessary to compensate for this effect. By adding Optimum No Rinse (ONR) to a regular car wash soap will improves the results when using tap water (0.5 oz / gallon) always add it to the water to remove the minerals before adding your soap. This will maximize the benefits of using No Rinse in this manner.

Water Supply Classifications (Water Quality Research Council)
• Soft Water- 0 to 1 grains per gallon
• Slightly Hard Water- 1 to 3.5 grains per gallon
• Moderately Hard Water- 3.5 to 7 grains per gallon
• Hard Water - 7 to 10.5 grains per gallon
• Very Hard Water - over 10.5 grains per gallon

Dilutions as per label
1. Car wash solution - 1oz / 2 gallons
2. Detailer’s clay lubrication - 2oz / gallon
3. Quick detailer (QD) - 8oz / gallon
4. Wet-sanding lubrication – 8oz / gallon

Note:
1. The use of ONR in a distilled water solution is an efficient method of cleaning as the polymers that are used to encapsulate soiling are not binding to any minerals found in ‘hard’ water, thereby losing some effectiveness.
2. A solution with the dilutions (ratios) suggested utilizing a 16oz spray bottle (128 oz = 1 Gallon) makes its application easier


An extract from one of a series of unbiased Detailing Technical Papers, a library of educational materials that has become the #1 reference for car care on the Internet

Chances are you'll learn something about detailing if you read any of these; although these articles will not improve your detailing skills, lead to a successful business or change your life. Applying what you learn from it, however, will. That's where your commitment comes in - you need to make a commitment to yourself right now that you will take action on what you learn.

© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2010, all rights reserved

[Tumo135]

I am doing the same thing at s OP and I also have swirls. I determined, after testing everything that comes in contact with the car that it is the sheepskin mitt that caused my swirls. I may have been using too much pressure. I am going to give it another shot then change to different type of mitt or a sponge

[vanbmw]

Originally Posted by Tumo135

I am doing the same thing at s OP and I also have swirls. I determined, after testing everything that comes in contact with the car that it is the sheepskin mitt that caused my swirls. I may have been using too much pressure. I am going to give it another shot then change to different type of mitt or a sponge

I changed from a sheetskin mitt to a microfibre mitt and have better results. The sheepskin held any small peices of grit and you couldn't get them out. My microfibre ones are a light yellow in colour and any little grit or stain is very noticable. I inspect it religiously and if it has anything in it, i put it in the washing machine an clean it. If that doesn't work then I replace it! They aren't very expensive so i keep several spares on hand. I use those mitts and the 2 bucket method and I have kept my swirls to a minimum!