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      10-31-2018, 11:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
I hope 1 extra quart doesn't result in the crank finding the sump oil. I guess you've done it and not seen signs. I also guess you think your engine may starve for oil if you don't add the additional quart. I doubt that on a BMW.

The crank hitting the oil is one possible effect but even without that it can raise the pressure inside the crankcase resulting in oil getting past seals. That would be especially true at higher rpm when the pressure inside the crankcase is elevated anyway.

I think 6 quarts in a 180 cubic inch engine is quite a bit of oil. With a properly designed sump, which I assume I have, I think the engine should never run out. I've owned several cars with bigger displacement engines and less oil in them and they were fine.
How exactly is an additional quart in the sump going to raise crankcase pressure?

Doubting that oil starvation on the track is a real problem, BMW or not, is asking for trouble and flat out wrong. I'll quote from Bimmerworld's page for the their N54 oil pan baffle (https://www.bimmerworld.com/Engine/E...5i-Z4-35i.html) :

When driving your E82 135i, 1M or E90/E92 335i on the track you must pay attention to oil pressure. During prolonged hard cornering, oil shifts away from the oil pump pickup and leaves the pump sucking fumes - not good at all for the health of your engine! By the time the dash warning light comes on the damage has already been done. You can help prevent oil starvation by welding this baffle into the oil pan. It does a better job of keeping a plentiful supply of oil near the pump pickup. It's easy to install, once the oil pan is removed, and is cheap insurance against engine failure. While oil starvation is not as common as it once was, we ran similar baffled oil pans on our E90 race cars because of oil starvation on the N52 engines.

That's a pro race team's point of view.

Finally, you are implying a relationship between displacement and oil capacity that simply doesn't exist. Oil capacity requirements are based on the bearing loads, heat transfer requirements, and expected service intervals. A low-stress, overbuilt cast-iron pushrod V-8 is unlikely to have the same oiling needs as a high-revving DOHC alloy I6.
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      11-01-2018, 07:00 AM   #24
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O2Pilot,

The quotes from the racing teams are interesting. The rest of your comment indicate you are confused.

The reason more oil raises the pressure inside the crankcase is that is the way gasses work. You might try googling the ideal gas law. When the volume inside the crankcase for gas is reduced, the pressure increases.

Your next misconception is that adding oil has the same effect as a baffle. They may be directed at the same thing but they are definitely not the same in either form or effect. MAYBE more oil stops the oil pump from sucking air. But the greater volume of oil is still free to move away from the pickup so the effect will be much less than putting in a baffle. A question to ask yourself is if adding oil solves the problem, why didn't the racing teams just do that?

There is certainly and obviously a relationship between displacement and oiling requirements. Larger engines have more surface area that need a thin film of oil. The oil has to move greater distances so more is contained in the passage ways through the engine. Air cooled Porsches use oil as a coolant explaining their high oil volume for their displacement. But I see no similar need for water cooled BMWs but a side benefit or purpose of oil is to transfer heat. But I still think 7 quarts is a lot for a 3 liter engine. It is more than many 5 and 6 liter V8s use. Bearing loads are not a function of displacement, it is the size of the bearings and the load they see so it is wrong to presume lower bearing loads in a push rod V8.
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      11-01-2018, 08:40 AM   #25
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The addition of a quart of oil is not going to alter the available interior volume of the crankcase in any meaningful way. Stick a slack-tube manometer on an engine with the PCV blocked off, then add a quart and check again. It's not going to be measurably different.

Adding oil for occasional track work is a compromise. Most people will not go to the trouble of pulling the pan and installing a baffle for such use. Clearly, a baffle is more effective, but also a lot more involved than dumping in a quart of oil.

Note that I did not say that one particular type or configuration of engine necessarily required more oil than another, but that requirements are likely to be different. There are clearly many variables at play. Your approach as described throughout this thread is reductionist and assumes that all engines have essentially the same requirements, which is simply not the case.
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      11-01-2018, 09:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
I hope 1 extra quart doesn't result in the crank finding the sump oil. I guess you've done it and not seen signs. I also guess you think your engine may starve for oil if you don't add the additional quart. I doubt that on a BMW.

The crank hitting the oil is one possible effect but even without that it can raise the pressure inside the crankcase resulting in oil getting past seals. That would be especially true at higher rpm when the pressure inside the crankcase is elevated anyway.

I think 6 quarts in a 180 cubic inch engine is quite a bit of oil. With a properly designed sump, which I assume I have, I think the engine should never run out. I've owned several cars with bigger displacement engines and less oil in them and they were fine.
The large(r) oil sump of the N52 I'm sure also has to do with oil life, rather than lubrication needs of the engine. The added volume should help with additive depletion and allow longer miles for your OCI.
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      11-03-2018, 07:07 AM   #27
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Think I'll stick with the opinion of the many highly educated engineers who actually designed and built these motors on what lubrication and amount is needed to keep them running optimally.
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      11-03-2018, 07:21 AM   #28
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Arrow Canton Accusump...

For anyone who tracks their car... you should install a Accusump... This device holds a few liters of oil UNDER pressure... and when your oil pump starts to cavitate or suck air, say in a turn or under hard braking... the Accusump will provide oil pressure for those vital seconds - proving your engine's bearings with the proper oil pressure it needs. An Accusump is cheap insurance to prevent engine damage on the track. :thumbsup"

It also works great on cold starts... priming the engine of oil pressure to minimize engine wear on cold starts. Some units have a mechanical valve the driver opens before engine startups. Or you can wire in an electronic opening valve. Canton makes some great oiling solutions. They used to be called Mecca... and they make some really great oil filters too.


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      11-03-2018, 07:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimD View Post
O2Pilot,

The quotes from the racing teams are interesting. The rest of your comment indicate you are confused.

The reason more oil raises the pressure inside the crankcase is that is the way gasses work. You might try googling the ideal gas law. When the volume inside the crankcase for gas is reduced, the pressure increases.

Your next misconception is that adding oil has the same effect as a baffle. They may be directed at the same thing but they are definitely not the same in either form or effect. MAYBE more oil stops the oil pump from sucking air. But the greater volume of oil is still free to move away from the pickup so the effect will be much less than putting in a baffle. A question to ask yourself is if adding oil solves the problem, why didn't the racing teams just do that?

There is certainly and obviously a relationship between displacement and oiling requirements. Larger engines have more surface area that need a thin film of oil. The oil has to move greater distances so more is contained in the passage ways through the engine. Air cooled Porsches use oil as a coolant explaining their high oil volume for their displacement. But I see no similar need for water cooled BMWs but a side benefit or purpose of oil is to transfer heat. But I still think 7 quarts is a lot for a 3 liter engine. It is more than many 5 and 6 liter V8s use. Bearing loads are not a function of displacement, it is the size of the bearings and the load they see so it is wrong to presume lower bearing loads in a push rod V8.
Huh?

The amount of oil in the engine has absolutely no bearing on pressure inside the crankcase. It is not a sealed system.

Our engines use a vacuum pump. The crankcase is running a vacuum, so below atmospheric pressure anyways.

The more oil in the engine the better. It is like saying you run your cooling system down 2 or 3 liters for whatever reason.
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      11-06-2018, 08:53 AM   #30
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It is interesting the diverse opinions that are voiced on a fairly simple subject.

First, while the engine crankcase is not totally sealed it is not open either. The purpose of the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve is to let out excessive pressure. So if you decrease the volume for the blow by and other gasses to accumulate, the pressure will increase but only to the point the PCV valve opens. The same gas in a smaller space increases the pressure.

The crankcase is not at a vacuum. The intake to the engine is at a vacuum and we have a vacuum pump to prove to the car that the fuel system is not leaking. But the inside of the crankcase is pressurized by the blowby of the rings and the whirling of the crankshaft. Until that pressure is reduced by the PCV.

I think we can all agree that the engine will be damaged if we do not have oil continuously circulating while the engine is running. But just as the engineers who designed the engine gave us a minimum volume for oil they gave us a maximum. I fill my car to the maximum as indicated by the oil level system but I do not overfill it. That takes 6 quarts. Not 7. I think that is the right thing to do but if you want to do differently in your cars it is certainly your right to do so.

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      11-06-2018, 03:39 PM   #31
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If the oil system is not sealed, why did my car run poorly and throw codes when I didn't have the fill cap fully tightened? After I tightened it properly, the car ran fine.
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      11-06-2018, 04:58 PM   #32
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In a previous automotive life, I did more investigation and experimentation with the M54 CCV system than even I can believe. There's a fair bit of transferable knowledge to the N51/2 (less so with the turbo motors, as positive intake pressure requires more complex arrangements). There's a lot of confusion about these systems. In short, the crankcase is supposed to be sealed; if it isn't, you end up with a vacuum leak (that was your problem, gjm120). The CCV/PCV valve not only regulates crankcase pressure but also flow. Intake vacuum is much less of a factor due to the membrane in the CCV/PCV regulating crankcase vacuum. Spec on the M54 was 3-4 inches of water, which is barely perceptible.

For anyone interested in the result, just search for "02Pilot mod" or look at this thread over at BF for the ridiculously long full investigation: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...CV-replacement
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      07-19-2019, 09:33 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
6.9 quarts or 6.5 liters for the N5x six cylinder engines.

The oil dipstick isn't that accurate as you think. I bet after an hour or two's of driving your oil level gauge will read low with just five quarts of oil in the sump.

Buy seven quarts and just dump them in. End of story. IF you really can't afford two extra quarts... you have bigger problems coming.

Dackel
On your advice, which I trust, I changed my oil today and added just under 7 quarts. My oil level said it was down a quart. When I dumped my oil back into a 5 quart jug, it didn't quite fill it up, so I assume I was closer to two quarts low.
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      07-19-2019, 09:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
On your advice, which I trust, I changed my oil today and added just under 7 quarts. My oil level said it was down a quart. When I dumped my oil back into a 5 quart jug, it didn't quite fill it up, so I assume I was closer to two quarts low.





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      07-19-2019, 03:34 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden View Post
On your advice, which I trust, I changed my oil today and added just under 7 quarts. My oil level said it was down a quart. When I dumped my oil back into a 5 quart jug, it didn't quite fill it up, so I assume I was closer to two quarts low.
IF you put 7 quarts in and less than 5 quarts came out... you still have some oil left in the sump!

I then saw your photos and you will need to have your car level - to do an oil change.

When I lived in a public garage... I would use my floor jack on the driver's side of the car... jack it way up and use a jack stand under the body(on both sides up front!) for safety... then change the oil with the car slightly leaning over to the passenger side. This way any oil in the sump would come out.

But it's BEST to have the car level. Buy some jack stands(4) and a floor jack. I also bought four rubber "pucks" that have the rectangular forms to fit the 1er body. I use these rubber hockey puck between the car's body and the jack stand.

You can see some old pics of my DIY oil change here... at JimD excellent oil change DIY. He has a 128i but its all pretty much the same on our cars. That's why I put my pics in his DIY thread.


First Oil Change on my 128i Convertible
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...=301440&page=2



When I change my oil... I remove the oil fill cap and put a rag there. I then go under the car and loosen the oil pan drain. After it's finished draining... I go back up top and remove the oil filter cap(slowly so not to spill out any oil, let it burp as your loosen it) then I remove the filter and use a fluid extractor to suck out the ~200ml of oil in there. put a new filter on and snug up the housing cap(not too tight! ~20Nm just beyond hand tight)... then I go back under the car and remove the drain plug. Another 300ml will come out. After that... put a new crush ring on the drain plug, tighten and I dump in 7 quarts of oil.


I also use my Dimple magnetic oil drain plug which is so much better than my old UUC one.
https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...=301440&page=4


Also... when I change my oil... I don't trust the dang e-dipstick until I have driven the car for a LONG time. Say 45 minutes. The reason is it can read low until the engine is fully warmed up. The Oil Condition Sensor can malfunction and give you a bad or false oil level reading. Look at this PDF to see how it can read falsely.
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      07-19-2019, 11:08 PM   #36
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I know it didn't look level, but it was. My driveway slopes down towards the garage enough that, on the ramps, it is level, and slightly angled towards the drain. I removed the filter before draining fully, as well as the filler cap. As you can see in the photos I did use a syringe to pull excess oil from inside the filter housing.

Hopefully the slight, no more than .5 quart, overfill isn't an issue, if indeed it is overfilled.
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      07-24-2019, 12:56 PM   #37
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I continue to believe that it is very defensible and even the best course of action to accept the measurements our car does as valid as long as they are not obviously incorrect. When my car says it is fully full of oil, I don't add more.

During my most recent oil change, the ramp on the passengers side slipped a bit and I didn't back off and start over. So the car was tilted slightly in that direction. When I put my normal 6 quarts back in, it did not read fully full. It was at mid-point or a little above, however. It seems like having the passengers side a little low drained more oil out. I find that interesting.

I also wonder if which oil pan you have makes any difference. I recently discovered mine is steel. Apparently that is normal for manual transmission cars. My drain plug is vertical. My ex wife's automatic n52 was horizontal and I think aluminum. It seems like this shouldn't make a difference but I wonder if it might. Not in the amount of oil it holds but in how much comes out when you drain it.

I have tried jacking my car up on all four corners and it did not seem to make any difference in what I needed to add to get to "full". So now I just drive up on my home made ramps, pull the drain plug, take off the oil fill cap, change the filter (I don't typically use a turkey baster on the residual oil in the filter housing but I do wait for it to drain into the pan), then put the plug back in with a new metal washer and dump in 6 quarts. My theory for the plastic cap over the filter changed when I failed to get the O-ring into the housing and lost several quarts of oil. Fortunately I had more oil nearby and didn't run the car really low but I did not like that experience at all. I was using a torque wrench on the cap. I no longer do that. You can see the O-ring and it needs to be well into the housing. When the shoulder of the plastic cap meets the aluminum housing it is a hard stop. You cannot with any reasonable force go further. That is where you stop - when it is bottomed.
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      07-24-2019, 02:12 PM   #38
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I let my car drain for 3 hours or so while I do other work. Always done with oil at full operating temp. Vehicle on a hoist. Always takes 7L to bring to full mark. This is the same on my N52 E90 and N55 E82.
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      07-26-2019, 07:36 AM   #39
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I do not drain for 3 hours and leaving a little behind is the most logical explanation of my observations. I checked the oil level on the way home yesterday, after driving about 25 miles and it read at maximum. So tilted towards the passengers side by 1.5 inches did not measurably change things.

I change at 5K mile intervals so I am not at all worried about not getting it all out. I am also not worried that I do not have enough in. I am at about 92.5K miles and the engine is not using any oil as far as I can tell, between oil changes.
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      08-21-2019, 09:49 PM   #40
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I think it's worth mentioning that the volume of oil changes with the temperature.


If you heat it up, it will expand and vice verse.

It probably won't be too significant but it's worth noting. Maybe that's why there's a range in the "green zone" but my car has just an orange meter when I do the check.


But just saying.


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      12-13-2019, 06:25 PM   #41
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6.5 liter capacity which is 6.9 quarts. Use 7 qts.
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