M1 engine speculation

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by Spartikus

Wow, I didn't know this.

S38

T

[confusion]

Originally Posted by adc

Ouch, busted. Perhaps I could use your screen name until my mind clears?

It's good to read a technical article every now and then...

Not busted. Just gently reminded.

[confusion]

Originally Posted by BForbes

I'm taking issue with the tone of your post so I will respond.

Likewise.

Advevo is one of the most respected enthusiasts on this forum. He's owned and raced the cars and has tons of videos to prove his skill. He's also been around long since before you ever became a mod of this forum. Lighten up. As far as moderators go, you've got quite the bone to pick with non-confrontational people who are free to express their opinions. Show some maturity and respect. Your attitude lately is not becoming of a moderator, imo.

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by confusion

Likewise.

Advevo is one of the most respected enthusiasts on this forum. He's owned and raced the cars and has tons of videos to prove his skill. He's also been around long since before you ever became a mod of this forum. Lighten up. As far as moderators go, you've got quite the bone to pick with non-confrontational people who are free to express their opinions. Show some maturity and respect. Your attitude lately is not becoming of a moderator, imo.

I think BForbes is frustrated like many of us are, with the repetitive nonsense on these boards. Quads, no quads, 135is, M1, etc.

I really hope we get some concrete info soon, so we can put this guess work to rest.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by confusion

Likewise.

Advevo is one of the most respected enthusiasts on this forum. He's owned and raced the cars and has tons of videos to prove his skill. He's also been around long since before you ever became a mod of this forum. Lighten up. As far as moderators go, you've got quite the bone to pick with non-confrontational people who are free to express their opinions. Show some maturity and respect. Your attitude lately is not becoming of a moderator, imo.

I publicly disagreed with a poster. I am a moderator but I am allowed to express my opinion. This is not the only forum I am on with Advevo. I dont have a bone to pick with him or anyone. He makes statements that deserve a response. Notice that he does not respond to the majority of the rebuttals in this community. This is a forum and we often have debates here. I never questioned his skill. Its not important. I did not question his reputation. Its not important. I only had issue with what he said. You are entitled to your opinion as I'm to disagree. If one is non-confrontational he/she should not post if a response is not expected. At 1addicts.com users that have been here for 1 week will not be treated any differently than one that has been here for years. From now on if you have a problem with the way I moderate send it via PM. This is completely Off-Topic.

Cliffnotes: The overwhelming majority of the poster in question's posts are very negative and repetitive in regards to the M1/1M. Post history is available to everyone. Myself and any member on this board reserves the right to question and debate.


-BForbes

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by Advevo

there is only one big test for me if turbo works.

Go on and off throttle midbend and balance the car with throttle. These throttle responses must be very fast. A NA engine has no problems with it. The E46 and E90 M3 does this perfectly.

Look at my movie of the CSL. Because of the fast throttle response you can so nicely balance the car. With turbo lag you wil never balance it so nicely but if a turbo can do this in the future then it s worth a try.

But i have test driven porsche turbo s and bmw turbo s and i have not found a single one which can balance the car on throttle midcorner.

If a turbo car can t do that. Than you can put such car in the nice fast daily drive section and nothing more than that.

I am seeing forward to the first tests. I really hope ///M can make turbo s act like NA ///M engines.

I have no trouble balancing my 135 with the throttle midcorner. I love it as I anticipate the boost keeping it spooled exactly where it needs to be prior to corner exit. Teasing the rear tires with massive torque as you begin the exit. It is like art and dance combined.

NA engines are easier to drive most times and maybe that is some peoples preferance. Driving a turbo can be more challenging because of both lag and extreme power for displacment.

I cannot understand why someone would be on and off the throttle midcorner anyway? You choose your line and execute it as fast as possible. Why unbalance the car? It slows you down. Only in competitive racing, car by car, should this even be an issue. If it does come up, the turbos torque should bail you out and make up for the lost time in the corner.

Sorry, and this is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I am tiring of post by people who do not have the skill to properly drive a turbo. It's ridicoulous. It requires more concentration and thinking ahead to compensate. Turbo cars are also far more rewarding to drive fast, as when you get it right they are so much faster than NA and as a driver you have accomplished a feat that does require more skill.

The other thing that bugs me about all the turbo haters is that valvetronic is faster than individual fuel injection throttle bodies, which helps the N55 respond, and NA cannot ever be as efficient as forced induction. It has to be the future.

The new engine in the M1 is going to be shared with the M3. Everyone that does not understand this knows little about profitable mass manufacturing by a car company that makes 1,000,000 plus cars a year. They share between platforms. This engine will have development dollars thrown at it this late in the E8x production cycle as it will be used in the M3.

It will also be good. It will continue to advance turbo technology and continue it forward. I cannot think of any car with an M engine, NA or Turbo, that I would not enjoy driving and this new one will be no exception.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by confusion

Likewise.

Advevo is one of the most respected enthusiasts on this forum. He's owned and raced the cars and has tons of videos to prove his skill. He's also been around long since before you ever became a mod of this forum. Lighten up. As far as moderators go, you've got quite the bone to pick with non-confrontational people who are free to express their opinions. Show some maturity and respect. Your attitude lately is not becoming of a moderator, imo.

Just on BForbes defence with his response - he was specifically refer Advevo's comment that the M1 will have a N54 engine - which is incorrect and spotted by numerous people.

I agree and appreciate Advevo's comments although it kind of got repetitive with regards to Turbo vs NA debate - but reading through his posts has made me understand a lot more about the difference of the two.

Originally Posted by Evan135

I have no trouble balancing my 135 with the throttle midcorner. I love it as I anticipate the boost keeping it spooled exactly where it needs to be prior to corner exit. Teasing the rear tires with massive torque as you begin the exit. It is like art and dance combined.

I cannot understand why someone would be on and off the throttle midcorner anyway? You choose your line and execute it as fast as possible. Why unbalance the car? It slows you down. Only in competitive racing, car by car, should this even be an issue. If it does come up, the turbos torque should bail you out and make up for the lost time in the corner.

I think you did what I have done and responded before you watched his video. He didn't mention that he was going sideways around a corner in the post, that's why he was balancing the throttle. It was an awesome video. I am not the best driver by all means, and I have problems balancing mid-corner as now I could understand the problems I have is a combination of turbo-lag, and suspension. However, I can imagine it would even be harder balancing the car on a control slide around the corner.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by adc

So how much did that GT3 Clubsport cost you, in Euros??? Why don't you look under the "hood" of a Ferrari F458 and immediately spend the money to buy it? After all, in addition to being completely special and bespoke, it's a better performer than the GT3 with a much better engine...

F458 is paddle-shift only, so probably not his type of car. That engine is an evolution of the one in the California, no? Chris Harris (Evo) drove the GT3 RS and 458 over the same roads and felt the Porsche was the more involving, more rewarding car to drive. It also sounded better, to him. He is something of a Porsche nut, however.
I doubt the GT3 Clubsport costs as much as the 458 (assuming you can get on the wait list for one).

Originally Posted by Levi

The M3 E46 engine is also a tuned BMW AG engine. The S65 and S85 were the only M engines build up from zero. Even the BMW M V12 engine that is in the McLaren F1 is not started from nothing but based on a BMW AG V12 engine.

The F1's engine was a bespoke unit. Gordon Murray had approached Paul Rosche about using a heavily modified 8-Series engine, but when he found it didn't meet his weight and dimensional targets, they decided to do a new engine.

[brizzom]

Originally Posted by Evan135

I have no trouble balancing my 135 with the throttle midcorner. I love it as I anticipate the boost keeping it spooled exactly where it needs to be prior to corner exit. Teasing the rear tires with massive torque as you begin the exit. It is like art and dance combined.

NA engines are easier to drive most times and maybe that is some peoples preferance. Driving a turbo can be more challenging because of both lag and extreme power for displacment.

I cannot understand why someone would be on and off the throttle midcorner anyway? You choose your line and execute it as fast as possible. Why unbalance the car? It slows you down. Only in competitive racing, car by car, should this even be an issue. If it does come up, the turbos torque should bail you out and make up for the lost time in the corner.

Sorry, and this is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I am tiring of post by people who do not have the skill to properly drive a turbo. It's ridicoulous. It requires more concentration and thinking ahead to compensate. Turbo cars are also far more rewarding to drive fast, as when you get it right they are so much faster than NA and as a driver you have accomplished a feat that does require more skill.

The other thing that bugs me about all the turbo haters is that valvetronic is faster than individual fuel injection throttle bodies, which helps the N55 respond, and NA cannot ever be as efficient as forced induction. It has to be the future.

The new engine in the M1 is going to be shared with the M3. Everyone that does not understand this knows little about profitable mass manufacturing by a car company that makes 1,000,000 plus cars a year. They share between platforms. This engine will have development dollars thrown at it this late in the E8x production cycle as it will be used in the M3.

It will also be good. It will continue to advance turbo technology and continue it forward. I cannot think of any car with an M engine, NA or Turbo, that I would not enjoy driving and this new one will be no exception.

Are you saying you think the new 135M/1M is going to have the NA V8? Or did I misunderstand?

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Just on BForbes defence with his response - he was specifically refer Advevo's comment that the M1 will have a N54 engine - which is incorrect and spotted by numerous people.

I agree and appreciate Advevo's comments although it kind of got repetitive with regards to Turbo vs NA debate - but reading through his posts has made me understand a lot more about the difference of the two.


I think you did what I have done and responded before you watched his video. He didn't mention that he was going sideways around a corner in the post, that's why he was balancing the throttle. It was an awesome video. I am not the best driver by all means, and I have problems balancing mid-corner as now I could understand the problems I have is a combination of turbo-lag, and suspension. However, I can imagine it would even be harder balancing the car on a control slide around the corner.

You are right I did not see the video. Considering how he likes to drive he has bought an excellent car for himself. But my post was not really directed at him or anyone. NA is easier to control all things being equal. That is it's plus. But compared to a well designed turbo it also has it's faults. You can do well with both if you are willing to take advantage of eithers better attributes. I also think people have a tendency to over react when learning to drive with a turbo, they can start a cycle of over correcting, making the turbos weakness worse. Turbos require you to be at your best, but on the right track, they can kill NA engines.

I do not race anymore as I know my reflexes are not as good at 51 as they were in my late twenties. but I have driven both on a track. Turbo Rx-7, 914-6, 911, Sunbeam Tiger, Mustangs, E30 M3, etc. I just get tired of myopic discussions of one side or the other. 100 years ago steam engines, yes they were in cars, were far more responsive than NA gasoline engines of the time. Guess what, given a chance the NA engines got pretty good.

Let's give the M division a chance to see if they can do their magic so our future rides are more fun. In todays world NA is becoming the past and it was a good one. Turbos are a great way to imitate varible displacement and therefore can be more efficient in street cars. Stay off the boost and you save gas and emmissions. I just do not think there is one right answer and these cars are being built primarily for the street, where low rpm torque and mileage are important..

[Evan135]

Originally Posted by brizzom

Are you saying you think the new 135M/1M is going to have the NA V8? Or did I misunderstand?

No V8 for the M1 as far as I have heard. The next generation of the M3 is the one that is supposed to have a more powerful version of the M1's engine. Sorry for the confusion...

[brizzom]

Originally Posted by Evan135

No V8 for the M1 as far as I have heard. The next generation of the M3 is the one that is supposed to have a more powerful version of the M1's engine. Sorry for the confusion...

Okay I got it

[Advevo]

I got also warning by PM by forbes.

Manny people have the bmw glazes on and think everything they build is the best. And the M1 is the best car etc etc.

I have raced bmw almost all my life have owned evo and subaru s turbo s also. My friend is a bmw dealer which is my sponsor and we race together in an E90 M3 which i have helped build. I can test drive almost every bmw.

I have also owned an 135i and mounted a limited slip diff. Did everything with the car which couldn t see the light of day

This is also me driving with the black 135i.

You can drift a turbo no problem. But NA is much much more satisfying the feeling youre foot is connected to the engine gives so much more control and you can do things with youre car you would never do with a turbo engine.

I count myself as a very very big bmw fan. Love the handling of the cars.

But i really find it a big dissapointment of ///M going turbo route. I also drove an x5M turbo i rather would buy X5 4.8is. The co2 numbers between the 4.8is and x5m are the same. So envoirment talk does not count here.

Turbo tech is a cheap way to make power and money. That s the agenda which ///M has at the moment. With envoirment talk lately this is perfect for them to introduce the turbo tech at ///M. But i am not the person that goes with ///Marketing flow at this time.

I still race with my bmw dealer and he likes it very much that i buy a porsche gt3. He knows were i am in search for and bmw ///M does not deliver it anymore.

If you don t know what i mean go drive an E46 ///M3 and a turbo car on track. Then if you still don t know what i mean you better find yourself a new hobby.

But if you like turbo s then for you guys the dream comes thru with an M1.

My sources say the M1 gets the z4 3.5is engine. But maybe i am wrong we shall see.

[pDz]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I got also warning by PM by forbes.

Manny people have the bmw glazes on and think everything they build is the best. And the M1 is the best car etc etc.

I have raced bmw almost all my life have owned evo and subaru s turbo s also. My friend is a bmw dealer which is my sponsor and we race together in an E90 M3 which i have helped build. I can test drive almost every bmw.

I have also owned an 135i and mounted a limited slip diff. Did everything with the car which couldn t see the light of day

This is also me driving with the black 135i.

You can drift a turbo no problem. But NA is much much more satisfying the feeling youre foot is connected to the engine gives so much more control and you can do things with youre car you would never do with a turbo engine.

I count myself as a very very big bmw fan. Love the handling of the cars.

But i really find it a big dissapointment of ///M going turbo route. I also drove an x5M turbo i rather would buy X5 4.8is. The co2 numbers between the 4.8is and x5m are the same. So envoirment talk does not count here.

Turbo tech is a cheap way to make power and money. That s the agenda which ///M has at the moment. With envoirment talk lately this is perfect for them to introduce the turbo tech at ///M. But i am not the person that goes with ///Marketing flow at this time.

I still race with my bmw dealer and he likes it very much that i buy a porsche gt3. He knows were i am in search for and bmw ///M does not deliver it anymore.

If you don t know what i mean go drive an E46 ///M3 and a turbo car on track. Then if you still don t know what i mean you better find yourself a new hobby.

But if you like turbo s then for you guys the dream comes thru with an M1.

My sources say the M1 gets the z4 3.5is engine. But maybe i am wrong we shall see.

it's great that you have your (informed) opinion. your thoughts are based on your own real world experiences.

there is a logic trap, however, if you one's own experience set is too biased or too limited.

i've been tracking with Z06 corvettes and eaten everything alive in my run groups. but i don't necessarily always come to the conclusion that displacement is the final answer for power on-track.



it's also a very fluid situation since the final spec and kit on the car are not released just yet.

[Spartikus]

I dont think anybody doesn't respect your racing skills, Advevo. It would be fair to say that most of us are excited about this new BMW product. All you've basically done for months in here was rag on a car that isn't released yet. "Oh, it will be the cheapest M car in history. Oh, the throttle response will suck. Oh, go and pick up a GT3, etc. etc." It goes on and on and its quite tiring. Its at the point that you are on here to tell us all in great detail why this car will suck. Thanks but no thanks.

Originally Posted by Advevo

LOL yeah keep youre 130i

6cil non turbo engine is a dream engine.

Just save up youre money and buy a second hand GT3. That a thru motorsport engine.

I was waiting for a thru motorsport M1 and i had bought one if it ticked al my boxes. But with the change of turbo my ///M hart has died. That means changing brand.

Originally Posted by Advevo

The production costs of this car is one of cheapest of all times compared to other m cars because it can t earn much money in such a short time.

So don t expect something special where lots of production costs is going into.

The engine will be the z4 3.5is engine. The diff suspension and brakes from the M3. Seats and steeringwheel from an M3 etc. M1 is a grab together parts car.

It s just the same that M grabs the engine out of the X5 M for the new M5.

They try to get less development costs to exchange parts. But were is special feeling about owning one????

I liked the idea of having a special ///M car which has an engine and other parts which is special made for the car.

Originally Posted by Advevo

They use the z4 3.5is engine proberly. An other grab in the AG parts bin.

The M1 is proberly the cheapest production M car of the century.

Originally Posted by Advevo

Levi

The new GTS at 1490kg and M1 at 1500kg with turbo is not were i am in search for. It s a big shame. Because i am a big bmw fan. The CSL is an awesome machine and give you the feel you drive something special.

It goes on and and on. I'm not gonna quote every single one your posts. The only constructive posts are in regards to racing and throttle applications. I appreciate that but will pass on the negativity. We all know what we want. And believe it or not many of us are still here because we like what we see so far.

[BMW269]

I understand what Advevo feels, and I am of the same opinion. Yet I still have hope. If BMW M builds cheaper cars, just like Audi RS and Mercedes AMG, but sells more they will get more money. Most of BMW M cars are sold because of there badge. If they get turbos they will be better daily drivable cars, and that is what most want today. I just hope BMW M will build with the cheaply earned money one real M, with NA HR I6, MT, RWD and two seats. A sort of Z4 M Coupé but even lighter and much faster. Then I wouldn't care if BMW M builds X5 M just as I like the 911 GT3 RS and do not care Porsche builds Cayenne Diesel and Panamera.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Levi

I understand what Advevo feels, and I am of the same opinion. Yet I still have hope. If BMW M builds cheaper cars, just like Audi RS and Mercedes AMG, but sells more they will get more money. Most of BMW M cars are sold because of there badge. If they get turbos they will be better daily drivable cars, and that is what most want today. I just hope BMW M will build with the cheaply earned money one real M, with NA HR I6, MT, RWD and two seats. A sort of Z4 M Coupé but even lighter and much faster. Then I wouldn't care if BMW M builds X5 M just as I like the 911 GT3 RS and do not care Porsche builds Cayenne Diesel and Panamera.

And now for a totally different opinion...

I hope they ditch the inline 6 and go with a truly masterful V6 in the future. Like the one in the NSX for example... it's just so much better for packaging, size, weight and weight distribution...

I've owned 5 BMW's with inline 6's, I respect and adore them but think BMW can do better than that and they should move on.

Flame suit on.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by adc

And now for a totally different opinion...

I hope they ditch the inline 6 and go with a truly masterful V6 in the future. Like the one in the NSX for example... it's just so much better for packaging, size, weight and weight distribution...

I've owned 5 BMW's with inline 6's, I respect and adore them but think BMW can do better than that and they should move on.

Flame suit on.

Engine alone, I6 is better than V6. Weight distribution is not an argument as 330i with I6 has a much better weight distibution than A4 3.2l FSI with V6. I like long hoods, you can feel the car better. If BMW will build V6, what will it have more special than Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Hyundai, Nissan......and all other V6. Do not worry, you have more hope than me. Maybe the next M3 (F30) will get the 4.4l V8 TT from the M5 (F10) with two cylinders less and so a 3.3l V6 TT.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by adc

And now for a totally different opinion...

I hope they ditch the inline 6 and go with a truly masterful V6 in the future. Like the one in the NSX for example... it's just so much better for packaging, size, weight and weight distribution...

I've owned 5 BMW's with inline 6's, I respect and adore them but think BMW can do better than that and they should move on.

Flame suit on.

+1. You can add reliability to that list too. If you can work on a Honda Accord of that gen, you can work on that ease. I love BMW's inline but if they must go the V6 route, it should be properly executed.

I'm indifferent in regards to the M1/1M being FI or NA. I've driven the M3 before and I didn't feel like I missed the N54. I have a feeling an NA M1 would produce the same effect. Perhaps we misunderstood Scott in regards of the engine. Is it possible that BMW could take away the turbo from the N55 and make an M engine?

[Sephiroth]

He specifically said twin turbo. I would much prefer that they went with an N/A on the M1.

[Spartikus]

Originally Posted by 1love

He specifically said twin turbo. I would much prefer that they went with an N/A on the M1.

I know he did but was hoping there was a bit of wiggle room for interpretation. Everyone is saying TT as well. How could CarandDriver get it so wrong:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...eries_m_-spied

I mean they surely must know everyone else is reporting a TT.

[gstopyra]

Originally Posted by adc

And now for a totally different opinion...

I hope they ditch the inline 6 and go with a truly masterful V6 in the future. Like the one in the NSX for example... it's just so much better for packaging, size, weight and weight distribution...

I've owned 5 BMW's with inline 6's, I respect and adore them but think BMW can do better than that and they should move on.

Flame suit on.

Ok, I'll bring it up again...what about a Turbo I4? Now before all the ricer comments...think about the weight savings for equivalent power...and if they follow suit with dropping weight elsewhere, an I4 would be logical choice. lets get back to a true 50/50 weight distribution (or greater). I want a fun driving car...

/puts on flame suit too