Another no start no crank datapoint

[kivyee]

New forum member here, long time car enthusiast. Recently acquired a 2012 BMW 135i. The car recently decided that it would entertain me with a no-start, no crank condition. Everything including HID light turn on as normal, then no-start and no crank, no other warning lights. I don't have a code reader yet so I don't know if there are any non-warning indicated codes, but I took it back on the dealer which I bought it from (A nissan dealer with a supposed BMW tech) in hopes of them offering some sort of coverage/help under their 90 day used car warranty.

Tech diagnosed as a failed IBS sensor/cable. Replacement was $700 CAD (3 hr labour and $330 for the cable from BMW). I laughed. Cable was not going to be covered under extended warranty (I got Global warranties) and their used car warranty was only powertrain. That night I asked for access to my car, unplugged the IBS sensor to do a quick check, and voila, still no crank no start. That told me their diagnosis was certainly...ungrounded! . I can't imagine if I was an unsuspecting non-mechanically inclined customer - I'd fork out $700 to get the job done and would be no closer to having it fixed...

Had the car towed to my regular Indy who specializes in Euro cars and as I suspected, failed starter, which IS covered under Global warranty. They were actually a breeze to deal with, but of-course they only cover a reman. starter and not a new one. Not a surprised - this is alluded to in the warranty contract. But hey, if they want to pay for the labor to do the job again if it fails, be my guest. I got a 4 year warranty for a reason .
Turns out the battery was weak too, so in goes a new battery. All in all, for something that was mostly covered under warranty, it still cost me close to $500. Yikes.

Coles notes: If a nissan dealer says you need a $700 job to replace an IBS cable, unplug it and see if the engine starts first.

[kivyee]

OK - here's for an update - the car is back to no-start no crank. I used the car over the last 2 days, started maybe 5 times...and was running fine when it was working. Dropped off my son at music class and couldn't start the car again. Disconnected the IBS and still no start.

It's at the shop waiting for them to open tomorrow for diagnosis. I checked with the mechanic and it looks like the previous starter WAS failed. Either I got a bum starter (it was a reman unit from BOSCH) or there's something else that could be killing the starter. Any ideas??

[andysantoro]

I’ve heard of issues with the power cable to the starter. Apparently the connector is bad and makes an intermittent connection.

[kivyee]

Looks like it could potentially be the BST - the car started after they disconnected the negative terminal to check the connections (for about 10 minutes), and when they reconnected the negative terminal the car started - so not a blown starter. They also charged the battery in the mean time.
Prior to that they had tried to jump the car and it wouldn't crank/start.
From what I understand a blown BST could potentially limit the amount of power available to the starter, hence causing a no-start issue.
Otherwise there's potentially a code/adaptation that got cleared when the battery was disconnected and reconnected.
I'm thinking:
1. If it's a physical "not enough power" condition due to BST then a jump should have started the car. From what I understand the +ive connection in the engine bay should "bypass" the BST.
2. There must be some sort of fault condition that gets stored in the ECM that prevents a start.
OR
3. Some sort of loose connection that got jostled and causes a no-start intermittently.
The mechanic said he checked all the connections, even under car, and they look good.

Any thoughts?

[kivyee]

Oh, I'm waiting to hear back from the mechanic about what codes he pulled.

[Gizmo135i]

Once the battery safety terminal is blown, it’s blown and the car won’t start. If you have voltage at the jump start terminal then it is not blown.

Sounds like you have an issue with either the positive cable (the one from the jump start post to the starter and alternator) or the negitive ground strap. I would start there.... if it is not starting then wiggle the fat power wire that comes out of the jump start terminal and runs up along the cowls. Sometimes it breaks apart inside the insulation.

[MightyMouseTech]

VERY common for the power cable to fail inside the insulation at the jump point under the hood.

[kivyee]

Thanks for the ideas! Anyone thinks it could be related to the IBS somehow? Annoying thing is that the car is at the mechanic's right now and he's the old gruff kind (he is good though) that it's not as easy to get him to "try" things.

[Gizmo135i]

Originally Posted by kivyee

Thanks for the ideas! Anyone thinks it could be related to the IBS somehow? Annoying thing is that the car is at the mechanic's right now and he's the old gruff kind (he is good though) that it's not as easy to get him to "try" things.

No the ibs is just a sensor

[pysik]

I posted this mid last year, it was the positive side cable to the starter that was ruining it for me. I also had my ground side cable checked and had that replaced as well.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...php?p=21935068

Picture of my Ground Cable

https://scontent.fyto1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...d1&oe=5AA0EBAE

[kivyee]

I say IBS because it can send a signal to the DME to trigger a no-start condition. Both the IBS and the BST has been has been ruled out - they swapped out with some they had on hand and no dice.

So more results from yesterday - after the car started from reconnecting the battery, they tried starting a few more times. On the 5th time they encountered the no-start no crank condition again. Seems like the battery also discharged to 12V or under during this time - this is a brand new battery (that the mechanic said he coded and registered).

It also threw a CAS Terminal 50 code. Sounds more and more like a loose connection. They are systematically going through all the cable connections to make sure they are tight.

Certainly welcome any more ideas - will update as things change.

[Gizmo135i]

Terminal 50 is the signal name for the small starter wire. That code comes up sometimes when the car doesn’t crank, basically the dme sees that the engine should be cranking but there are no rpms, so it throws that fault.

You can access terminal 50 quite easily to check power, there is a two pin connector near the throttle body that has a red and white wire. One of them is terminal 50, I don’t remember which one off hand.

Also the ibs sensor will not make the car not start.

Still think either you have a bad engine compartment power wire, ground wire, or your new starter is no good...

[kivyee]

Originally Posted by Gizmo135i

Also the ibs sensor will not make the car not start.

Just going by the 2006 service bulletin from BMW I came across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B50...kMDRjOWVh/view

which states

SITUATION
The engine does not crank. Only the SRS (Supplemental Restraint System) and red brake lights
show in the instrument cluster with ignition on. FC A111 (ELV voltage supply fault) is stored in
the CAS (Car Access System)
CAUSE
Low 15WUP signal voltage caused by faulty IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor)
CORRECTION
In case of customer complaint, disconnect the IBS connector X13895 (3-pin connector with 2
wires). The IBS is located on the negative battery terminal. Follow the white/blue and gray wires
from the IBS to locate X13895.
If the vehicle now starts, the IBS is faulty and must be replaced.

[kivyee]

The good new is - the car is fixed! Gizmo and mighty mouse you were right, it was the wire going across the engine along the top on towards the rear (firewall) of the engine. Apparently there's a connector, about one foot away from the jump point, that is under the insulation/wire sheathing that released but still contacted. They pushed it back together very tightly and taped it so it won't come apart anymore. I'll solder it if it ever becomes a problem. Picture to come.

At this point I think this pretty much explains all the symptoms/occurances/trouble-codes. Also explains why a jump didn't help start the car.

[kivyee]

Here's the picture

[Gizmo135i]

Originally Posted by kivyee

Just going by the 2006 service bulletin from BMW I came across.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B50...kMDRjOWVh/view

which states

SITUATION
The engine does not crank. Only the SRS (Supplemental Restraint System) and red brake lights
show in the instrument cluster with ignition on. FC A111 (ELV voltage supply fault) is stored in
the CAS (Car Access System)
CAUSE
Low 15WUP signal voltage caused by faulty IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor)
CORRECTION
In case of customer complaint, disconnect the IBS connector X13895 (3-pin connector with 2
wires). The IBS is located on the negative battery terminal. Follow the white/blue and gray wires
from the IBS to locate X13895.
If the vehicle now starts, the IBS is faulty and must be replaced.

That bulletin applies to early e90 and e60 only, those were different. Anyways glad to hear it’s fixed... if it becomes a problem again it’s probably best to just replace it... intake manifold needs to come out but it’s not that difficult.

[Mr Gasser]

Make sure all connectors are connected...who would have thunk?

[kivyee]

Originally Posted by Mr Gasser

Make sure all connectors are connected...who would have thunk?

Unfortunately this connection point is apparently underneath the sheathing/insulation. You can't see there's a break from the outside.

[KRAMCLASSIC]

Originally Posted by kivyee

Here's the picture

Reviving this thread and hoping anyone could help me Identify or point me in the right direction of what the part number is for this Starter power wire same as the pic above?

I had this issue with my car recently and I think the cable may be failing again. Just had a new starter installed and Battery tested still good and my Indy shop just repaired the cable but may need to be replaced now. Trying to do this myself this time and I've been googling and checked Pelican parts website but no luck finding it, any help would be appreciated?

thanks

[N55darksoul]

I have a 2012 BMW 135i and having problems also ... I looked under that area in picture and there is no connector that I could see just the wire.

[optigrab]

This is for a N54 but should be similar hope it helps

[optigrab]

IBS

IBS diagnosis
A fault code is stored in the ECM when the IBS is defective. The ECM boosts idle speed in order to sufficiently charge the battery.The IBS can only be diagnosed through the ECM. The self diagnosis function checks the voltage, current, temperature,terminal 15 wake up signal as well as system errors in the IBS.

Voltage measurement
If IBS is shorted to ground, ECM fault code displays "Voltage Fault DME ON". The IBS is unable to wake up the ECM.
If IBS is shorted to B+, ECM fault code displays "Voltage Fault, DME not ON". The vehicle does NOT enter sleep mode.

Current measurement
Current measurement is a dynamic process. If an implausible
current flow value is detected, ECM fault code displays "Current Fault".

No crank, no start
• Disconnect IBS connector (3-pin connector with 2 wires) at negative battery terminal. Follow white/blue and gray wires from IBS tolocate connector.
• Now try starting vehicle. If vehicle starts, replace faulty IBS.