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      11-15-2017, 10:55 PM   #45
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Yeah I feel like MCS/Moton/AST has done a great job at marketing to the sports car racing series - they're on a pedestal and in my fairly uninformed opinion I think overrated. Same goes for KWs, I will probably go with Ohlins or Bilstein next.
Haha, spewing your uninformed opinion will help no one. Marketing is one thing, but results, podiums, testing -- all goes a long way. Don't steer clear of stuff just because it's popular!
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      11-15-2017, 11:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Yeah I feel like MCS/Moton/AST has done a great job at marketing to the sports car racing series - they're on a pedestal and in my fairly uninformed opinion I think overrated. Same goes for KWs, I will probably go with Ohlins or Bilstein next.
Haha, spewing your uninformed opinion will help no one. Marketing is one thing, but results, podiums, testing -- all goes a long way. Don't steer clear of stuff just because it's popular!
Haha being sarcastic, by uninformed I mean to say that I have not driven dialed in AST, Moton, MCS, KWCS back to back and compared lap times. From a technology standpoint (inverted monotube designs) and second-hand experience with regards to rebuilds (every 2 seasons with MCS?). I find it hard to justify the 2x price point is SA MCS (non-remote) over a Ohlins or Bilstein kit. Also, keeping it SA saves you points in some time attack series and NASA. Maybe I'm just cheap?

I wish I had the data but maybe MCS shocks win a lot podiums thanks to their biz dev team getting them rolled out as the spec shock for many series?

I'm in NO way bashing any shock company. I run KWs and have very little faith in their twin tube low pressure design for competitive Motorsports. I would swap these for MCS in a heartbeat if I didn't just buy a house and have to do adult things :
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      11-24-2017, 07:10 PM   #47
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Bit of a recap video of our adventure to Super Lap Battle. I know I owe you guys some in-depth updates -- I'll get to it this week!

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      11-29-2017, 02:02 AM   #48
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Very nice Video!
What do you think holds you back to have a time under 2 minutes?
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      11-29-2017, 02:18 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by frontside0815 View Post
Very nice Video!
What do you think holds you back to have a time under 2 minutes?
Seat time in the car and experience on Buttonwillow, I'd say. That was my first time driving the car and first time at that track. The car 1000% has it in it as it sits. I'm confident with a few more changes, I'll beat the street tire record (1:58.xx by Berk), without aero and on 255's.

The car DEFINITELY needs a bigger rear bar and I'd say stiffer front springs at the very least. So before the next outing, I'll be doing 8k front, E92 M3 rear bar and maybe 14k rear springs. Also going to see if BimmerWorld can get me an adustable front lower control arm so I can dail in more neg camber without cutting the shock tower or running an offset control arm bushing.
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      11-29-2017, 03:33 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by berns View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by frontside0815 View Post
Very nice Video!
What do you think holds you back to have a time under 2 minutes?
Seat time in the car and experience on Buttonwillow, I'd say. That was my first time driving the car and first time at that track. The car 1000% has it in it as it sits. I'm confident with a few more changes, I'll beat the street tire record (1:58.xx by Berk), without aero and on 255's.

The car DEFINITELY needs a bigger rear bar and I'd say stiffer front springs at the very least. So before the next outing, I'll be doing 8k front, E92 M3 rear bar and maybe 14k rear springs. Also going to see if BimmerWorld can get me an adustable front lower control arm so I can dail in more neg camber without cutting the shock tower or running an offset control arm bushing.
Can't believe Berk couldn't get below 1:58 - that seems really really doable without aero. Some folks notch the strut tower 3-5mm to add a bit of camber, haven't seen many failed strut towers on this platform.
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      11-29-2017, 05:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Can't believe Berk couldn't get below 1:58 - that seems really really doable without aero. Some folks notch the strut tower 3-5mm to add a bit of camber, haven't seen many failed strut towers on this platform.
Just preference. I'd be happier getting where I want to without doing it. We'll see.

The track has since been repaved, tires have improved... Definitely doable. Also, they ran a 1:53.221 in limited class on Hankook slicks.
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      11-29-2017, 05:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Can't believe Berk couldn't get below 1:58 - that seems really really doable without aero. Some folks notch the strut tower 3-5mm to add a bit of camber, haven't seen many failed strut towers on this platform.
Just preference. I'd be happier getting where I want to without doing it. We'll see.

The track has since been repaved, tires have improved... Definitely doable.
Yeah, Berk did it on RS3s I believe
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      11-30-2017, 03:24 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Yeah I feel like MCS/Moton/AST has done a great job at marketing to the sports car racing series - they're on a pedestal and in my fairly uninformed opinion I think overrated. Same goes for KWs, I will probably go with Ohlins or Bilstein next.
I completely disagree, other than the fact that AST is trash.

I run MCS on my FRS, decided to spend the coil and get Double Adjustable Remotes. There is no comparison against a KW or other similarly equipped mid-grade shock, IMO.

Response off turn-in is incredible, bump damping is way way superior than any other shock I've ran. There is a clear night and day difference how this shock performs than others.

With that being said, not all MCS shocks are made the same. You will sacrifice bump travel if you get a 2WNR shock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Haha being sarcastic, by uninformed I mean to say that I have not driven dialed in AST, Moton, MCS, KWCS back to back and compared lap times. From a technology standpoint (inverted monotube designs) and second-hand experience with regards to rebuilds (every 2 seasons with MCS?). I find it hard to justify the 2x price point is SA MCS (non-remote) over a Ohlins or Bilstein kit. Also, keeping it SA saves you points in some time attack series and NASA. Maybe I'm just cheap?

I wish I had the data but maybe MCS shocks win a lot podiums thanks to their biz dev team getting them rolled out as the spec shock for many series?

I'm in NO way bashing any shock company. I run KWs and have very little faith in their twin tube low pressure design for competitive Motorsports. I would swap these for MCS in a heartbeat if I didn't just buy a house and have to do adult things :

Whoops, just saw this now....

MCS shims are very high grade. Depending on mileage you shouldn't need a 2 year rebuild unless you want to revalve. You can probably go 30-50k miles on MCS and be okay. I've known others than put 4 years on MCS shocks, sent them into service and they dyno just like they left and MCS doesn't do a service on them
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      11-30-2017, 03:26 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Yeah I feel like MCS/Moton/AST has done a great job at marketing to the sports car racing series - they're on a pedestal and in my fairly uninformed opinion I think overrated. Same goes for KWs, I will probably go with Ohlins or Bilstein next.
I completely disagree, other than the fact that AST is trash.

I run MCS on my FRS, decided to spend the coil and get Double Adjustable Remotes. There is no comparison against a KW or other similarly equipped mid-grade shock, IMO.

Response off turn-in is incredible, bump damping is way way superior than any other shock I've ran. There is a clear night and day difference how this shock performs than others.

With that being said, not all MCS shocks are made the same. You will sacrifice bump travel if you get a 2WNR shock.


It's okay to think they're overrated. But if you haven't owned one and tuned with one you're not one to make an opinion.
Totally fair, for conversation sake - have you run a professionally revalved Ohlin or Bilstein monotube shock setup?
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      12-01-2017, 12:59 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berns View Post
Seat time in the car and experience on Buttonwillow, I'd say. That was my first time driving the car and first time at that track. The car 1000% has it in it as it sits. I'm confident with a few more changes, I'll beat the street tire record (1:58.xx by Berk), without aero and on 255's.

The car DEFINITELY needs a bigger rear bar and I'd say stiffer front springs at the very least. So before the next outing, I'll be doing 8k front, E92 M3 rear bar and maybe 14k rear springs. Also going to see if BimmerWorld can get me an adustable front lower control arm so I can dail in more neg camber without cutting the shock tower or running an offset control arm bushing.
Okay, sounds good.
My car has a lot of the mods you have too, altough i am not quite as finished as you are- i maybe will also start a small thread.

On the Video the track seemed really flat, is that right? So you don´t Need the coilovers for heavy "bump correction"? Because now i am running the Standard ST XTA (same as KW CS concerning Spring Rates), i think about trying harder ones in the rear. But since my tracks are not flat like the track in the video (Nürburgring and Bilster Berg) i think too hard wont work that good.

So the 255 fit fine, without rubbing? How much camber do you run again? Next season i will try 235/40 AD08R on a BBS RC303, cause i tend to run above the Level where the Pilot super sports (245/35) still feel good. Didn´t wanted to try a 245, cause i was frightened it wont fit without much work.

One more question: Did your car have active steering? I read about M3 Steering Rack Conversion all the time, but since my car has this active steering i am not sure if a) the conversion is worth it and b) if it will work.
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      12-01-2017, 07:41 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berns View Post
Bit of a recap video of our adventure to Super Lap Battle. I know I owe you guys some in-depth updates -- I'll get to it this week!

This video is great. Gotta love "we spent so much time getting our cars ready and we are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE." I laughed out loud at work.

Getting out on track is a humbling experience. Really helps you understand why seat time > mods. I've had instructors in stock 135i blow by me on track lol
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      12-01-2017, 07:50 AM   #57
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Totally fair, for conversation sake - have you run a professionally revalved Ohlin or Bilstein monotube shock setup?
Not on my own personal car, but other yes.

Personally, with the Ohlins...I didn't like the cross talk on the R&T shocks. Trying to increase rebound results in undesirable bump. Driving another FRS equipped with these shocks, trying to increase front rebound ended up making the car skate. Usually, you increase one knob you want to decrease the other (this obviously changes but typical rule of thumb). With Ohlins (and most other SA shocks) you cannot achieve this.

FWIW - On my BMW I ran TCK DAs.
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      12-01-2017, 08:29 AM   #58
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Really glad people are starting to challenge our fitment issues. Perhaps down the line I'll explore the narrower e9x hub option and 1M front end so I can run 10" wheels at decent concavity
Be really cautious when doing this. You will not have a "square" setup at all. The front track will be significantly wider than the rear. To really get bigger tire fitment out of a 1-series you need the matching rear 1M quarter panels OR cut up the stock ones and flare them out. Putting on shallower hubs just makes the rear wheelbase even shorter. The only real benefit is that you will have a bit more positive scrub radius depending on how low of an offset wheel you use.
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      12-01-2017, 11:24 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kgolf31 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spxxx View Post
Totally fair, for conversation sake - have you run a professionally revalved Ohlin or Bilstein monotube shock setup?
Not on my own personal car, but other yes.

Personally, with the Ohlins...I didn't like the cross talk on the R&T shocks. Trying to increase rebound results in undesirable bump. Driving another FRS equipped with these shocks, trying to increase front rebound ended up making the car skate. Usually, you increase one knob you want to decrease the other (this obviously changes but typical rule of thumb). With Ohlins (and most other SA shocks) you cannot achieve this.

FWIW - On my BMW I ran TCK DAs.
That is my biggest gripe with the Ohlins adjustment characteristics and why the Bilsteins are even in the picture. Thanks for the info!
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      12-01-2017, 12:57 PM   #60
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I completely disagree, other than the fact that AST is trash.
Wondering why you say this? I have not had a set, and have ZERO experience with them, but was planning on some 5100's for the car. (AST has a pretty good NASA contingency, and I get as much of that as I can)
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      12-01-2017, 01:15 PM   #61
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Wondering why you say this? I have not had a set, and have ZERO experience with them, but was planning on some 5100's for the car. (AST has a pretty good NASA contingency, and I get as much of that as I can)
Their valving is undesirable, typically their build quality has fallen down the rabbit hole when they were sold off. Even though they're a subset of Moton, it isn't even close to that quality.

They aren't in US anymore, so best of luck trying to service them or get parts.

IMO - JRZ or MCS is a much better shock for the same money. Both US made, and known reputation.
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      12-01-2017, 01:31 PM   #62
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Their valving is undesirable, typically their build quality has fallen down the rabbit hole when they were sold off. Even though they're a subset of Moton, it isn't even close to that quality.

They aren't in US anymore, so best of luck trying to service them or get parts.

IMO - JRZ or MCS is a much better shock for the same money. Both US made, and known reputation.
Again, I have no experience, and I will definitely be looking into it further, but I have called and talked to them a couple of times (for shocks for my Z3), and they seemed to be on the ball, saying they could custom valve for me, recommend springs, etc. and their headquarters is in CA.

I don't know, as I have never had any, but $350 for a regional event, and 1K for the championships would be a nice little prize to have.
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      12-04-2017, 06:08 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by frontside0815 View Post
Okay, sounds good.
My car has a lot of the mods you have too, altough i am not quite as finished as you are- i maybe will also start a small thread.

On the Video the track seemed really flat, is that right? So you don´t Need the coilovers for heavy "bump correction"? Because now i am running the Standard ST XTA (same as KW CS concerning Spring Rates), i think about trying harder ones in the rear. But since my tracks are not flat like the track in the video (Nürburgring and Bilster Berg) i think too hard wont work that good.

So the 255 fit fine, without rubbing? How much camber do you run again? Next season i will try 235/40 AD08R on a BBS RC303, cause i tend to run above the Level where the Pilot super sports (245/35) still feel good. Didn´t wanted to try a 245, cause i was frightened it wont fit without much work.

One more question: Did your car have active steering? I read about M3 Steering Rack Conversion all the time, but since my car has this active steering i am not sure if a) the conversion is worth it and b) if it will work.
255's fit fine. I run -3* front camber with M3 lower arms. Some rubbing under massive bumps / very hard compression but it's been easy to avoid by gently rolling / pulling the front fenders. Really, this setup is so easy compared to other cars I've tried aggressive fitments on. Like you said, the reason most people run small tires is because they're scared. Just go for it.

As for spring rates and tracks... Buttonwillow has a few major bumps in it, especially if you're going for the fastest lap, which includes some curb hopping. My spring rate choices were guided by what's been successful on this platform, however, despite being advised to run this setup, I find it to be too soft. You can see here, I'm lifting the front inner tire on a turn and the next image is way too much compression coming onto the straight. The stiffer rear sway bar and stiffer springs should help the car behave at the limit.

Re: Steering rack. my car doesn't have active steering. The M3 rack has a plug for Servotronic I believe. You can either leave this unplugged or wire it up to function with some coding. I leave it unplugged. No issues whatsoever, minus some noticeably heavier steering, but I don't mind that. The response makes it worth it 100x over.



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      12-04-2017, 06:12 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
This video is great. Gotta love "we spent so much time getting our cars ready and we are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE." I laughed out loud at work.

Getting out on track is a humbling experience. Really helps you understand why seat time > mods. I've had instructors in stock 135i blow by me on track lol
Ha, glad you enjoyed it. We enjoy being a self deprecating bunch. With that being said, I was SO stoked to run 2:00 there my first time. Can't wait to keep dialing in the car and getting more seat time.
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      12-04-2017, 09:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by berns View Post
As for spring rates and tracks... Buttonwillow has a few major bumps in it, especially if you're going for the fastest lap, which includes some curb hopping. My spring rate choices were guided by what's been successful on this platform, however, despite being advised to run this setup, I find it to be too soft. You can see here, I'm lifting the front inner tire on a turn and the next image is way too much compression coming onto the straight. The stiffer rear sway bar and stiffer springs should help the car behave at the limit.


I think youre lifting the inside front because your rear spring rate is too low. That is where you should start before you go changing anything on the front. The soft rear is very apparent in that pic.

Also, take into consideration what moving to a stiffer spring will do to your droop travel. You typically want 60% bump and you may end up with 0 droop travel.

Moving to a stiffer front spring might also put you in a position where those 255s are no longer enough tire and youll just end up dialing in understeer.

Last edited by bbnks2; 12-05-2017 at 07:13 AM..
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      12-05-2017, 11:33 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
I think youre lifting the inside front because your rear spring rate is too low. That is where you should start before you go changing anything on the front. The soft rear is very apparent in that pic.

Also, take into consideration what moving to a stiffer spring will do to your droop travel. You typically want 60% bump and you may end up with 0 droop travel.

Moving to a stiffer front spring might also put you in a position where those 255s are no longer enough tire and youll just end up dialing in understeer.
Yeah, spoke to a few seasoned track / chassis specialist friends as well. All were blown away at how low the front spring rate is (6k) and said the car needs stiffening up all around. The front inside tire lift probably has most to do with running the M3 front sway and the stock rear sway. I might just swap in the new e92 M3 rear bar with front and rear adjustable endlinks before touching the spring rates. Just to keep the changes minimal, especially since I've got a really good baseline at Buttonwillow.
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