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      06-25-2019, 08:47 PM   #45
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...but bankruptcy protection is OK?

Debt is debt right?
Brilliant idea - those with big school debt just declare bankruptcy?

There are consequences though like no credit for a long time after that.
You can't do that. Only retail unsecured debt is dischargeable through bankruptcy. Govt debt or govt backed unsecured debt is not dischargeable.
He was trying to be a smart ass...
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      06-25-2019, 10:34 PM   #46
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He was trying to be a smart ass...
thanks for the compliment.
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      06-25-2019, 10:41 PM   #47
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Isnít college a choice????

If one canít afford college ....trade school is an option. And donít most that have a TRADE make more money than those that graduate with a Liberal Arts degree.
This is so true. Problem is a college degree has become a social trapping like the latest iphone or a nice car.
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      06-25-2019, 11:51 PM   #48
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So bernie wants to pay off the government made loans created by fictious money expected to be paid back with money that doesn't exist with borrowing more money that doesn't exist and taximg production that does exist to pay back the government on money they never really had.... got it.
Yess, I'm going to have to save that quote.
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      06-26-2019, 02:50 AM   #49
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Something that very few people actually consider when discussing student loans is that many people use student loans for living expenses while in school. Should that be forgiven as well? Or should only the education portion be forgiven? How would you begin to separate the commingling of those funds?

If you take that into consideration and combine it with the notion posed by many of reimbursing those that have already paid for school, or the associated loans, is the government now obligated to reimburse those people for their living expenses as well? Good luck calculating that.

I can't help but wonder if the meteoric rise in education costs and the ever growing student loan crisis is at least partly fueled by the expectation that if the crisis gets big enough the government will be forced to step in and pay it all off, thus everyone involved getting their payday.
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      06-26-2019, 09:43 AM   #50
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...I can't help but wonder if the meteoric rise in education costs and the ever growing student loan crisis is at least partly fueled by the expectation that if the crisis gets big enough the government will be forced to step in and pay it all off, thus everyone involved getting their payday.
I strongly doubt that is the case.

Much more likely, IMO, is that the meteoric rise in tuition rates stems directly and nearly exclusively from the sea change we saw in the recent past where you "had to" go to college in order to be successful as an adult.

Captive markets are like shooting fish in a barrel....
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      06-26-2019, 09:52 AM   #51
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I strongly doubt that is the case.

Much more likely, IMO, is that the meteoric rise in tuition rates stems directly and nearly exclusively from the sea change we saw in the recent past where you "had to" go to college in order to be successful as an adult.

Captive markets are like shooting fish in a barrel....
I think it is a combination of this, and the federal government taking over the student loan industry and essentially eliminating credit requirements. When everyone can get a loan, regardless of ability to pay it back, then schools can raise tuition rates and the general market will pay them anyway since they are now a third party to the transaction. This same phenomenon can be seen in the healthcare industry where the majority of users of healthcare don't directly pay the provider, and as such, don't care nor know what the cost of service is.

But yes, the general shift to "you have to go to college no matter what" mentality over the last couple decades has certainly fueled the problem as well.
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      06-26-2019, 10:25 AM   #52
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Some of the details in this story may be missing are not exactly correct...
When the state of SC started the "Education Lottery" it was to pay most or all of a student's tuition & fees. It took very little time for the schools to raise charges to the point where the out of pocket cost for students was the same as before the Lottery.
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      06-26-2019, 02:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
I strongly doubt that is the case.

Much more likely, IMO, is that the meteoric rise in tuition rates stems directly and nearly exclusively from the sea change we saw in the recent past where you "had to" go to college in order to be successful as an adult.

Captive markets are like shooting fish in a barrel....
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I think it is a combination of this, and the federal government taking over the student loan industry and essentially eliminating credit requirements. When everyone can get a loan, regardless of ability to pay it back, then schools can raise tuition rates and the general market will pay them anyway since they are now a third party to the transaction. This same phenomenon can be seen in the healthcare industry where the majority of users of healthcare don't directly pay the provider, and as such, don't care nor know what the cost of service is.

But yes, the general shift to "you have to go to college no matter what" mentality over the last couple decades has certainly fueled the problem as well.

Government affects everything, the question is why. I think it's a correct assumption that one of the factors that contributed greatly to a material rise in matriculation rates was Govt subsidizing student loans. It had a double effect of both increasing matriculation rates, but also, when the universities saw the greater demand for their product, they were able to drastically raise tuition costs, and since the students (at the time they take the loans) are insufficiently educated to realize that getting something now and having to pay it off forever, and with interest, is not a good thing, they went along with it.

The question is why would the Govt subsidize student loans, why would they encourage something that frankly doesn't need encouragement. The answer is economics, or actually based on an economic fallacy. In very basic Macro Econ 101 we learn that there is something called (economic) Capital. Economic capital consists of buildings, equipment and HUMAN SKILL. We also learn later on that there is a concept called Production Possibilities Frontier. The frontier is essentially a graph showing the maximum amount of consumer and/or capital goods a country can produce given its resources. One of the ways to shift the frontier outward, meaning to increase a country's production potential is by increasing capital, and more specifically, in the form of human capital, or skill. That is done through more education. So bottom line is that a mediocre economist suggested to someone that we'd be better off economically if more people went to college and so started the Government's involvement in trying to affect college matriculation rates through subsidized and guaranteed loans.

The fallacy of the idea is that these notions while being theoretically correct in a vacuum, operate differently in the pragmatic world. There are diminishing returns in artificially pumping matriculation rates to ever higher percentages. Imagine if 100% of the country goes to college, there will still be jobs that do not require college and everyone of those positions, filled by someone who did go to college, not only does that not improve the country's production potential, it actually harms the country because some of these people can't pay for their education at all, and the ones who just get by, would have had extra money to buy "stuff" that would have helped the economy directly rather than repaying their loans. There is probably a percentage breakdown that someone can come up with of the number of jobs in the US that require college vs those that do not. Let's say 60% hypothetically. In that case, we should only be striving for 60% matriculation, so to the extent that the rates are lower than 60% then it makes sense for the govt to affect change thru subsidies to raise the rate to 60%, but once you get there, not only should the subsidies go away, but eventually as the matriculation rates hit even higher percentages, the govt should make an effort to lower the number, maybe by subsidizing trade schools or other non-college options.

This is one of the issues when pure academics who live in the realm of abstract theoretics, use their ideas to affect change without realizing the intricacies of the real world.

/End Rant

Last edited by Genieman; 06-26-2019 at 02:40 PM..
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      06-26-2019, 02:28 PM   #54
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Government = economic fallacy.
You could have summarized your statement to just these points. It's the bottom line. Pretty much anything the government gets it's hands into, will be made worse.
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      06-26-2019, 02:58 PM   #55
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You could have summarized your statement to just these points. It's the bottom line. Pretty much anything the government gets it's hands into, will be made worse.
Yet the left wants more government
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      06-26-2019, 03:04 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by scostu View Post
Isnít college a choice????

If one canít afford college ....trade school is an option. And donít most that have a TRADE make more money than those that graduate with a Liberal Arts degree.


Bernie sounds like reverse engineering gone wrong.
but being a tradesman isnt as cool as saying you went to college.

that is the issue we have now. everyone has been told that they have to go to a 4yr college to make it in life, but arent told they need to actually think about what they are going to do in college, and what kind of job they will get after college. People look for the easiest path to graduation and dont think that usually the easy paths lead nowhere, and are now surprised that their degree is basically a $50k piece of paper.

everytime i hear someone saying they dont make enough money, or cant find a job, i hand them a card and tell them to fill out an application for a laborer. We can always use people willing to work on one of our jobsites, but unfortunately, there is a lack of people willing to actually work.
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      06-26-2019, 03:05 PM   #57
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Why down on A&M? It's a good school - especially the engineering school.

BTW - I didn't go there.
OU FO LYFE
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      06-26-2019, 03:21 PM   #58
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I'm officially dumber after reading this post.
I actually think it's kinda amazing. Especially that last bit. But I'll be the first to admit how much I love a good train wreck.
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      06-26-2019, 03:23 PM   #59
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This... because my wife and I are STILL paying off her Medical school loan. She has been practicing medicine for 15 yearsssssss.
LOL, same here. 15 years exactly. At least my wife was able to consolidate down to 3. something %. $100k down, $50k left to go....
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      06-26-2019, 03:38 PM   #60
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OU FO LYFE
Translation please.
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      06-26-2019, 04:11 PM   #61
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This is so true. Problem is a college degree has become a social trapping like the latest iphone or a nice car.
Be that as it may, or not, a college degree is still among the best ways to ensure steady, gainful employment on average. So I wouldn't say its quite as fleeting as an iphone.
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      06-26-2019, 04:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
This is so true. Problem is a college degree has become a social trapping like the latest iphone or a nice car.
Be that as it may, or not, a college degree is still among the best ways to ensure steady, gainful employment on average. So I wouldn't say its quite as fleeting as an iphone.
On average, yes, but when you break it down by field of study there is massive variation. In certain fields it's hugely beneficial, like medicine and legal fields. But there is no one who needs a masters in gender studies to be a barista...
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      06-26-2019, 04:37 PM   #63
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but being a tradesman isnt as cool as saying you went to college.

that is the issue we have now. everyone has been told that they have to go to a 4yr college to make it in life, but arent told they need to actually think about what they are going to do in college, and what kind of job they will get after college. People look for the easiest path to graduation and dont think that usually the easy paths lead nowhere, and are now surprised that their degree is basically a $50k piece of paper.

everytime i hear someone saying they dont make enough money, or cant find a job, i hand them a card and tell them to fill out an application for a laborer. We can always use people willing to work on one of our jobsites, but unfortunately, there is a lack of people willing to actually work.

I work for the electric company. I got lineman here making more than a school super intendent. And all they have is a PhD aka plain hs diploma and some military experience. Yet back in HS not one fucking guidance counselor mentioned these type of jobs. These educators laugh at garbage man even though the garbage men make more than them.
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      06-26-2019, 04:47 PM   #64
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On average, yes, but when you break it down by field of study there is massive variation. In certain fields it's hugely beneficial, like medicine and legal fields. But there is no one who needs a masters in gender studies to be a barista...
Yes, on average, which is why I used that word. THere have always been less useful degrees and more useful degrees.

Edit: Luckily, there were less than 1500 "gender studies" majors in the most recent year that I could find, 2015. So, not really a concern there.
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      06-26-2019, 05:06 PM   #65
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Be that as it may, or not, a college degree is still among the best ways to ensure steady, gainful employment on average. So I wouldn't say its quite as fleeting as an iphone.
IF someone picks the right degree from the right school which more and more don't do. Go to a college catalog and look at all the useless (useless as far as producing income to pay back a loan) degrees. Sure it's great to learn about anything, but....

If people think they are going to get paid based on their grades and/or intelligence with no skills or aptitude for doing something the market values, they made a big mistake getting in debt for their degree.
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      06-26-2019, 05:17 PM   #66
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How much are community college 2 year degrees running now? I remember taking summer classes really cheap! But then again, many students also have their 1st semester of college finished when they graduate HS. AP classes (which are taken by most colleges, especially state schools)
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