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      07-14-2019, 10:19 AM   #23
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And the title should read "California Liberal Progressive Communists"', as that is what the Democratic party is becoming.
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      07-14-2019, 10:59 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
I wish the Dems would drop the whole tax return thing. As others have said, what's it really going to prove given that the IRS has had his returns for years. Makes no sense. The fantasy here is that congress will uncover massive fraud and illegal activities. OK, and the IRS is all "Oh yeah, shoot, we missed that. Glad you guys spotted it." Come on. This is nuts.

I'm 1,000,000,000% certain that his tax returns will show that he's not as wealthy as he has stated in the past. That's it. Big deal. Time to move on.
You're ignoring the great financial knowledge of some on the House Finance Committee. Remember the hearing on student loans and M. Waters.
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      07-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Oh gawd more drivel from this TDS infected drone. It's like whack-a-mole in this place. The IRS have always had his returns and if there was any wrongdoing you don't think they would have acted? And if they had you don't think those court proceedings would have come to light? And the line about a corporation owing money to foreign lenders somehow equating to some kind of influence is moronic at best. Crawl back in your hole for I'd say...the next 5 1/2 years.
Ok, but what about the fact that the IRS had Nixon's returns but the fraud wasn't found until he released his returns to the house judiciary committee? And what about the fact that New York revenue service had his returns for a long time, but the trump family tax fraud wasn't discovered until some NYT reporters spent a huge amount of time conducting a thorough investigation. I appreciate the fact that you guys hold a government agency (IRS) in such high regard, but I think you might be giving them a little too much credit. As one of you pointed out, people like trump hire experts exactly to hide things from the IRS.

And forget about any fraud that might be found in his federal taxes for a second (we already know fraud was found in his NY taxes). What about the fact that he lied (and constantly lies) about his business success. Part of trumps appeal to some voters was that he was hugely successful. If you had known that he had lost a billion dollars - and LIED about it - before the election, would that really not have made any difference to you?

On second thought, I guess it probably wouldn't. I mean, sexual assault didn't make a difference. Marital infidelity with a porn star didn't make any difference. I suppose at this point he literally could shoot someone in Times Square and it wouldn't make any difference.

It appears that TDS is real, but it's not people like me that have it - it's you guys.
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      07-14-2019, 11:30 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cjb762 View Post
Ok, but what about the fact that the IRS had Nixon's returns but the fraud wasn't found until he released his returns to the house judiciary committee? And what about the fact that New York revenue service had his returns for a long time, but the trump family tax fraud wasn't discovered until some NYT reporters spent a huge amount of time conducting a thorough investigation. I appreciate the fact that you guys hold a government agency (IRS) in such high regard, but I think you might be giving them a little too much credit. As one of you pointed out, people like trump hire experts exactly to hide things from the IRS.

And forget about any fraud that might be found in his federal taxes for a second (we already know fraud was found in his NY taxes). What about the fact that he lied (and constantly lies) about his business success. Part of trumps appeal to some voters was that he was hugely successful. If you had known that he had lost a billion dollars - and LIED about it - before the election, would that really not have made any difference to you?

On second thought, I guess it probably wouldn't. I mean, sexual assault didn't make a difference. Marital infidelity with a porn star didn't make any difference. I suppose at this point he literally could shoot someone in Times Square and it wouldn't make any difference.

It appears that TDS is real, but it's not people like me that have it - it's you guys.
You telling me the IRS is all MAGA HATs? Like no one at the IRS looked into Trump? And if there was any fraud you dont think it would have leaked out already. Come the fuck on.
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      07-14-2019, 11:35 AM   #27
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Article summarizing Nixon’s tax issues. Note that fraud was not charged, although the taxes due were adjusted and Nixon paid back taxes and penalties.

http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readin...3?OpenDocument
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      07-14-2019, 11:43 AM   #28
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You telling me the IRS is all MAGA HATs? Like no one at the IRS looked into Trump? And if there was any fraud you dont think it would have leaked out already. Come the fuck on.
are you telling me that you don't understand that it is illegal for anyone in the IRS to improperly access someones tax returns?

I am not saying that there is absolutely tax fraud in his federal returns, but we know there was tax fraud in his NY returns. We also know that he lied about why he was not releasing his federal returns (they were under audit). People who lie about things like that are usually hiding something. Although it could absolutely be that he was just lying because that is what he does...
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      07-14-2019, 12:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by cjb762 View Post
are you telling me that you don't understand that it is illegal for anyone in the IRS to improperly access someones tax returns?

I am not saying that there is absolutely tax fraud in his federal returns, but we know there was tax fraud in his NY returns. We also know that he lied about why he was not releasing his federal returns (they were under audit). People who lie about things like that are usually hiding something. Although it could absolutely be that he was just lying because that is what he does...
Please release your tax returns to this forum if you don't then yoh must be hidding something...


Kidding aside we live in a society that your innocent until proven guilty so unless we have a convictions your putting the cart before the horse.
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      07-14-2019, 12:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Please release your tax returns to this forum if you don't then yoh must be hidding something...


Kidding aside we live in a society that your innocent until proven guilty so unless we have a convictions your putting the cart before the horse.
Actually, that legal principle doesn't apply to our society at large, just within the criminal justice system, and more specifically in court. Also, a person isn't "innocent until proven guilty" - rather, they are extended the right to a "presumption of innocence."

In our system, presumption of innocence merely means that the government bears the burden of proof at trial to prove guilt, and the defendant is not required to prove his innocence. It doesn't mean that the defendant is literally "innocent" of criminal behavior.

If it were as you are arguing above, law enforcement should never be investigating anything because no one suspected of having committed a criminal act has been convicted yet (i.e. they would be "putting the cart before the horse"). That would be a pretty silly thing.
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      07-14-2019, 12:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cjb762 View Post
are you telling me that you don't understand that it is illegal for anyone in the IRS to improperly access someones tax returns?

I am not saying that there is absolutely tax fraud in his federal returns, but we know there was tax fraud in his NY returns. We also know that he lied about why he was not releasing his federal returns (they were under audit). People who lie about things like that are usually hiding something. Although it could absolutely be that he was just lying because that is what he does...
So the IRS has nothing. If there was any wrong doing we would have know by now. The game you guys play is Soviet style justice. You accuse Trump of some BS and he has to prove his innocence. If he tries to brush it off then he is obviously guilty. In a nutshell this has been his entire presidency so far. If this shit was pulled on a Democrat you would have been crying about injustice and every ism in the book.
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      07-14-2019, 12:37 PM   #32
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So the IRS has nothing. If there was any wrong doing we would have know by now. The game you guys play is Soviet style justice. You accuse Trump of some BS and he has to prove his innocence. If he tries to brush it off then he is obviously guilty. In a nutshell this has been his entire presidency so far. If this shit was pulled on a Democrat you would have been crying about injustice and every ism in the book.
Holy shit TDS is strong in you. Keep your eyes firmly closed and head buried deep in the sand. I'm sure things will work out.
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      07-14-2019, 12:43 PM   #33
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Holy shit TDS is strong in you. Keep your eyes firmly closed and head buried deep in the sand. I'm sure things will work out.
How did that Russian collusion work out for you guys? How about Trump making up the border crisis?

No Russian collusion and border crisis is real but of course they blame Trump for it. Yeah we're the deranged ones. Come 2020 I will be taking my ass to the polls for four more years of TDS. I love the clown show you hypocrites put on when he wins.
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      07-14-2019, 07:25 PM   #34
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More transparency for all candidates/politicians (no matter the party) so the public can see as much financial connections as possible is a good thing.

Would this not be the essence of starting to drain the swamp?
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      07-14-2019, 07:56 PM   #35
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Some would argue that losing $1 billion in 10 years says something about an individual's competence.
Elected officials do that all the time....in even fewer years.
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      07-14-2019, 10:53 PM   #36
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The IRS is charged with enforcing tax law. Somehow people are buying into the concept that we need to task politicians with this duty? How well will that work out? 🤦🏻*♂️
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      07-15-2019, 07:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
More transparency for all candidates/politicians (no matter the party) so the public can see as much financial connections as possible is a good thing.

Would this not be the essence of starting to drain the swamp?
I personally don't have a problem with this, except for a couple of exceptions:

1) Using tax returns is a terrible idea, because there is a massive difference between book income and tax income. What you see on tax returns directly relates to IRS rules and guidelines and the tax code, and nothing to do with actual sources of income, amounts of income, et al. As such, it provides a very clouded and manipulated picture for anyone looking. As an example, take a look at the reported tax income for many companies. You will see it as a loss, likely in the hundreds of millions. Now, do you think companies like Tesla could survive if they lost half a billion dollars every year? Of course not. Their actual income is different than taxable income.

2) If ultimately deciding to use tax returns, then it cannot apply to only "certain" political groups, it needs to be universal and retroactive. So if this passes, then every single current politician in California or representing California has to make their last 5 years of tax returns public as well. Think that will every happen? Ha!

So - in theory, while a useless idea - I have no problem making tax returns public for all public employees. In reality, that will never happen, which just proves this is really just a 'gotcha moment' and a plan designed to stymie a politician that local government officials in CA don't like.
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      07-15-2019, 08:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I personally don't have a problem with this, except for a couple of exceptions:

1) Using tax returns is a terrible idea, because there is a massive difference between book income and tax income. What you see on tax returns directly relates to IRS rules and guidelines and the tax code, and nothing to do with actual sources of income, amounts of income, et al. As such, it provides a very clouded and manipulated picture for anyone looking. As an example, take a look at the reported tax income for many companies. You will see it as a loss, likely in the hundreds of millions. Now, do you think companies like Tesla could survive if they lost half a billion dollars every year? Of course not. Their actual income is different than taxable income.

2) If ultimately deciding to use tax returns, then it cannot apply to only "certain" political groups, it needs to be universal and retroactive. So if this passes, then every single current politician in California or representing California has to make their last 5 years of tax returns public as well. Think that will every happen? Ha!

So - in theory, while a useless idea - I have no problem making tax returns public for all public employees. In reality, that will never happen, which just proves this is really just a 'gotcha moment' and a plan designed to stymie a politician that local government officials in CA don't like.
^Agreed with all of this.

It is one of those "it's a start thing" for me. Anything that goes in the direction of revealing where all of the politicians get their income from I'm for. But, I'm also not naive enough to know that their tax records paint the whole financial picture by a longshot.

It would be nice to have qa much more robust financial accounting system that politicians should have to do in order to fill xyz public office. Pipe dream/never happen I know as we see how hard it is just to get tax records etc. But, if someone truly wants to drain the swamp this is one big way to start doing it.
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      07-15-2019, 08:07 AM   #39
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The IRS is charged with enforcing tax law. Somehow people are buying into the concept that we need to task politicians with this duty? How well will that work out? 🤦🏻*♂️
Who is saying this? I think most are just asking for them to follow the law and then be transparent about where their income comes from etc.
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      07-15-2019, 08:09 AM   #40
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It's California, just give the electoral votes to the Dim in the first place and save the state the money of even running the election process.

These are the same buffoons who will scream all day and burn the country down for even daring to ask about citizenship on a census form.
Understanding fully that the question was on the ballot in the census before and Mr. Obama removed it by presidential fiat.

Can we get a facepalm emoticon? What say you Law ?
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      07-15-2019, 08:13 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I personally don't have a problem with this, except for a couple of exceptions:

1) Using tax returns is a terrible idea, because there is a massive difference between book income and tax income. What you see on tax returns directly relates to IRS rules and guidelines and the tax code, and nothing to do with actual sources of income, amounts of income, et al. As such, it provides a very clouded and manipulated picture for anyone looking. As an example, take a look at the reported tax income for many companies. You will see it as a loss, likely in the hundreds of millions. Now, do you think companies like Tesla could survive if they lost half a billion dollars every year? Of course not. Their actual income is different than taxable income.

2) If ultimately deciding to use tax returns, then it cannot apply to only "certain" political groups, it needs to be universal and retroactive. So if this passes, then every single current politician in California or representing California has to make their last 5 years of tax returns public as well. Think that will every happen? Ha!

So - in theory, while a useless idea - I have no problem making tax returns public for all public employees. In reality, that will never happen, which just proves this is really just a 'gotcha moment' and a plan designed to stymie a politician that local government officials in CA don't like.
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
^Agreed with all of this.

It is one of those "it's a start thing" for me. Anything that goes in the direction of revealing where all of the politicians get their income from I'm for. But, I'm also not naive enough to know that their tax records paint the whole financial picture by a longshot.

It would be nice to have qa much more robust financial accounting system that politicians should have to do in order to fill xyz public office. Pipe dream/never happen I know as we see how hard it is just to get tax records etc. But, if someone truly wants to drain the swamp this is one big way to start doing it.
Good points but the real question is how a person gets elected to congress with a 4 figure net worth and leaves 12, 15, 20 years later as a multi-millionaire. This is where the real crime is, it's under everyone's nose, and no one cares to mention it or do anything about it. It's the elephant in the room.
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Last edited by MKSixer; 07-15-2019 at 09:16 AM..
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      07-15-2019, 08:21 AM   #42
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And this entire discussion (legislatively, not here) is a deflection. The real issue in my mind is qualification to serve. This has been left up to the voters (and I suppose the party vetting process) but I see lots of people running these days with zero legislative experience, and really no examples of an ability to work successfully in groups to achieve anything. Similarly, for president we have candidates with no demonstrated ability to work with both parties, or simply to lead. Many coming out of congress have a track record of mediocrity, to be charitable. Instead we talk about tax returns and ethnicity and who owned slaves 5 generations before and all manner of nonsense.
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      07-15-2019, 08:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
And this entire discussion (legislatively, not here) is a deflection. The real issue in my mind is qualification to serve. This has been left up to the voters (and I suppose the party vetting process) but I see lots of people running these days with zero legislative experience, and really no examples of an ability to work successfully in groups to achieve anything. Similarly, for president we have candidates with no demonstrated ability to work with both parties, or simply to lead. Many coming out of congress have a track record of mediocrity, to be charitable. Instead we talk about tax returns and ethnicity and who owned slaves 5 generations before and all manner of nonsense.
In all honesty I have zero problems with a normal, rank and file citizen moving into office. This is as intended. The problem is that the political parties, PACs of all manner, and a host of other problems have poisoned the body of our republic. It is disgusting in the extreme.

To your point, why are we discussing tax returns and who owned whom 200 years ago? It's all deflection, division creating, and status quo maintaining. As citizens, we have to do better and while many may not agree, the election of Mr. Trump, an outsider has put these crooks on notice.

One may not like him, think he's all manner of nut-job, etc, but remember this: No politician of either party wanted him elected. They and other captains of industry gathered with the specific intent of making certain no other non-vetted candidate would ever ascend beyond the level that they chose. That combined with the Podesta targeted email from a DNC consultant which stated their goal of a docile and compliant population should have everyone in the streets rioting but, yeah...no one cares.

If we keep electing and re-electing these career politicians, we are laying our own heads on the chopping block.

Cheers-mk
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      07-15-2019, 09:20 AM   #44
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Understanding fully that the question was on the ballot in the census before and Mr. Obama removed it by presidential fiat.

Can we get a facepalm emoticon? What say you Law ?
That doesn't seem to be the case.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/23/63056...ship-questions
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