M1 engine speculation

[ORIGIN M.]

I remember something like that too, but that would suck to drive any other way except for straight!

Originally Posted by BrokenVert

Didnt somebody in the UK stuff an E39 M5 V8 into a 130i's engine bay? So its doable in terms of a V8 fitting under the hood.

That being said, I doubt that it will be done.

I like the idea of a modified N55 with twin turbos and high strength internals.

[sparoz]

Just remember the N55 is basically a N54 with valtronic and twinscroll rather than twin turbo. Or, the other way of looking at it is the N55 is a N52 with a twinscroll turbo rather than NA.

The M1 engine (with previous naming conversion I guess would be the S55, will have the N52 engine, with twin turbo. If the twin turbo can contain a twinscroll, and a second normal turbo, that would make it extremely insane - but that would also means it would be a M3 killer which is not going to happen.

[LeoHammer]

why couldn't the M1 be an M3 killer? they did it once before when they first released the Z4M

[Robert]

I will never say never, given the current M3 is faster than the M5, no? At a minimal its on-par in acceleration under official BMW NA fact sheet. Won't be surprised if the M1 is a smidgeon faster in the straights but losing steam well in the triple digit region. Once the boost goes these turbo engine loses power fast.

[sparoz]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Just remember the N55 is basically a N54 with valtronic and twinscroll rather than twin turbo. Or, the other way of looking at it is the N55 is a N52 with a twinscroll turbo rather than NA.

The M1 engine (with previous naming conversion I guess would be the S55, will have the N52 engine, with twin turbo. If the twin turbo can contain a twinscroll, and a second normal turbo, that would make it extremely insane - but that would also means it would be a M3 killer which is not going to happen.

Way has kindly turned my attention to the x5m/x6m engine - which is a twinscroll twinturbo engine. Since then I have also studied the N54, 55 and S63 engine. The issue with a six cylinder is that it can't have a twinscroll twinturbo as the BMW twinscroll unlike some other twinscroll engine it only have one fan, and it separate different cylinders to manage the exhaust flow - there is no way to divide the cylinders by 4 unless there is an uneven split between the cylinders for example 1 of the chamber might only connect to 1 cylinder. The only other way would be using the traditional twin turbo setup to have cylinder 123 on 1 turbo, while cylinder 345 on another. The improvement in this case would mean the S55 would only have the addition Valvetronic over the N54, probably tuned with a higher boost, with a bigger intercooler and fan.

[Taymaishu]

Strange that nobody has even considered the option of a supercharged 6...... THAT would be lovely.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Way has kindly turned my attention to the x5m/x6m engine - which is a twinscroll twinturbo engine. Since then I have also studied the N54, 55 and S63 engine. The issue with a six cylinder is that it can't have a twinscroll twinturbo as the BMW twinscroll unlike some other twinscroll engine it only have one fan, and it separate different cylinders to manage the exhaust flow - there is no way to divide the cylinders by 4 unless there is an uneven split between the cylinders for example 1 of the chamber might only connect to 1 cylinder. The only other way would be using the traditional twin turbo setup to have cylinder 123 on 1 turbo, while cylinder 345 on another. The improvement in this case would mean the S55 would only have the addition Valvetronic over the N54, probably tuned with a higher boost, with a bigger intercooler and fan.

I had exactly the same thoughts when I first saw the details on the S63. I'm with you that it's more complicated to have a twinscroll twinturbo setup on an inline6. I heard that BMW is working on the "adaption" of their patented exhaust manifold for the S63, which routes the exhausts of every two cylinders (with 360° angular ignition spacing between them) into one scroll. Applying this to an inline 6 leaves us with three necessary scrolls. How that will be done, whether they're working on a triple-scroll turbo or are adding another single turbo to the existing twin-scroll layout, is beyond my knowledge.

Thinking of it, I also like your idea of having an uneven split. This would mean two twin-scroll turbochargers. Two cylinders, each of which feeds the smaller scroll of each twinturbo alone and every two of the remaining cylinders feed the bigger scrolls.


Best regards,
south

[ChrisK]

The M1 is the new M3

[DBFIU]

Your are all wrong, the M1 will use this.

[BrokenVert]

Originally Posted by DBFIU

Your are all wrong, the M1 will use this.

You mean one of these?

[Monterra]

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

Strange that nobody has even considered the option of a supercharged 6...... THAT would be lovely.

+1- I've said this from the start:
135- supercharged I6- less cost, less lag, ~300hp should still be easy
M1- sequential twin charged (super and turboed) I6 ~350hp, big, right now torque and response- best of both worlds- the power of M.

Maybe next time, root for the S4 and maybe BMW will 'follow'

[hector]

Originally Posted by 123D-M

Agreed, 4 cylinder Tii yes, 4 cylinder M1 no.

sorry but you're incorrect; per scott27 this gen M1 gets the 6cyl turbo but the F20 M1 will get a 4cyl turbo and overall be much lighter than the e82 M1. you can read his post at gcz.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by southlight

I had exactly the same thoughts when I first saw the details on the S63. I'm with you that it's more complicated to have a twinscroll twinturbo setup on an inline6. I heard that BMW is working on the "adaption" of their patented exhaust manifold for the S63, which routes the exhausts of every two cylinders (with 360° angular ignition spacing between them) into one scroll. Applying this to an inline 6 leaves us with three necessary scrolls. How that will be done, whether they're working on a triple-scroll turbo or are adding another single turbo to the existing twin-scroll layout, is beyond my knowledge.

Thinking of it, I also like your idea of having an uneven split. This would mean two twin-scroll turbochargers. Two cylinders, each of which feeds the smaller scroll of each twinturbo alone and every two of the remaining cylinders feed the bigger scrolls.


Best regards,
south

They are working on a trick manifold and yes it can be split

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

They are working on a trick manifold and yes it can be split

This sounds great and leads me to another, yet unanswered question. Is this engine the base for the F3x M3 also? You probably wouldn't tell.


Best regards,
south

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by 123D-M

Maybe in America all you ever get are the V8 models for whatever reason, probably because your petrol is so cheap, but in Europe BMW are famous for their straight 6 engines. You seem to have forgotten the E46 M3 which in my opinion is still the best, and I wouldn't call the E36 M3 an afterthought by any means.

Then of course there is the 635CSi, the original E28 M5 (which incidentally used the same I6 out of the M1), the E34 M5, the original E24 M6, etc etc.

And that is without mentioning any of the fantastic recent I6 interpretations: the 130i, the 135i, 335i, 535i, 635i, 328i, 530i, 730i..... Z4 M coupe and roadster (almost forgot them). Z1 also had an I6, Z3 (ok that was a bit crap but the engine was still good...).

So yes, I think you might be mistaken. The inline 6 cylinder engine has enormous pedigree at BMW.

Thanks for the info. I do not deny that BMW as a whole doesnt have an enormous pedigree with their I6 engine, I just felt that at least in the US ///M models, there may have been as many non-I6 engines as there have been I6 engines. As a whole, the I6 in a BMW is of course the gold standard.

Case in point - the E36 and E46 M3s have had I6, all others have not. The E28 and E34 M5 have had I6, the E39 and the latest M5 have not.

So my point was as many ///M units have had other engines as have had I6. Im sure BMW sells I6 engines at a far higher rate overall than any others. But over all M cars, this may not be the case, or it may be the case still.

Anyway, thanks for the info!

[amdmaxx]

I want BMW to make M1 slower on paper but faster in real life..

Originally Posted by Robert

I will never say never, given the current M3 is faster than the M5, no? At a minimal its on-par in acceleration under official BMW NA fact sheet. Won't be surprised if the M1 is a smidgeon faster in the straights but losing steam well in the triple digit region. Once the boost goes these turbo engine loses power fast.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by LeoHammer

why couldn't the M1 be an M3 killer? they did it once before when they first released the Z4M

Why would it matter..?

People looking to buy an M3 aren't concerned with the M1. The M3 is a luxury GT that is in a different segment of the market.

If people were looking to spend less and get more performance, then they can already do that in something like a vette.

The choice is based on what you identify with the most... want/needs, etc. Undoubtedly, the M1 could rival the M3 in certain performance characteristics, but it will never be a M3, or vice-versa..

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by sparoz

Way has kindly turned my attention to the x5m/x6m engine - which is a twinscroll twinturbo engine. Since then I have also studied the N54, 55 and S63 engine. The issue with a six cylinder is that it can't have a twinscroll twinturbo as the BMW twinscroll unlike some other twinscroll engine it only have one fan, and it separate different cylinders to manage the exhaust flow - there is no way to divide the cylinders by 4 unless there is an uneven split between the cylinders for example 1 of the chamber might only connect to 1 cylinder. The only other way would be using the traditional twin turbo setup to have cylinder 123 on 1 turbo, while cylinder 345 on another. The improvement in this case would mean the S55 would only have the addition Valvetronic over the N54, probably tuned with a higher boost, with a bigger intercooler and fan.

Don't forget it will have more precision (control) and better efficiency aswell..

[amdmaxx]

Its called S4..
I am surprised nobody mentioned BMW using something similar to Porsche 911 Turbo engine tech (variable turbine geometry).

Originally Posted by Taymaishu

Strange that nobody has even considered the option of a supercharged 6...... THAT would be lovely.

[BMW86]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Why would it matter..?

People looking to buy an M3 aren't concerned with the M1. The M3 is a luxury GT that is in a different segment of the market.

If people were looking to spend less and get more performance, then they can already do that in something like a vette.

The choice is based on what you identify with the most... want/needs, etc. Undoubtedly, the M1 could rival the M3 in certain performance characteristics, but it will never be a M3, or vice-versa..

Why can't the 1 be a 3? They are both BMW's, they both look like brothers, essentially one could argue the 135i is just a 335i with the back end chopped off and a few kg lighter. Besides that, they share many of the same components including the engine. The M1 could easily upset the M3 owners just like the 135i has upset the 335i owners. Sure, it will never have the killer GT looks but it will be a serious option for those in the market for high performance BMW.

[akak1997]

I can't remember where I read it, but didn't BMW mention there could be electric motor assisted turbos? I would be sweet if the M1 uses an I6 with slightly bigger turbos than in the N54 with electric assisted spool up. I think sequential turbos are out of date, I don't see any manufacturer will go back into that mess again.
Or even more insane, M1 to be the first BMW to use variable geometry turbos (VGT)...

In reality, I won't be surprised if the M1 engine will just be a better tuned N54/N55 engine with a better oil cooler, fuel pump and maybe a bigger intercooler. Going from 300->350 is easy, there are tons of STAGE1 tunes out there for the N54 that does it, with pump gas and every thing else stock, not even intake/exhaust.

Oh, and as much as I wanted it to come true... the E9xM3's V8 is never gonna come in a e82 from the factory. Gas Guzzling V8 in a compact car? that's just BAD PR.....

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by BMW86

Why can't the 1 be a 3? They are both BMW's, they both look like brothers, essentially one could argue the 135i is just a 335i with the back end chopped off and a few kg lighter. Besides that, they share many of the same components including the engine. The M1 could easily upset the M3 owners just like the 135i has upset the 335i owners. Sure, it will never have the killer GT looks but it will be a serious option for those in the market for high performance BMW.

er.. I didn't say it couldn't, or wouldn't outperform the M3.. I said "Why does it matter?

If all you are seeking is M3 performance, buy an M3 or equivalent! Most who are worried about such things will most likely never buy either. To many, the actual performance figures don't matter, it's how well the car suites your driving style/needs.

400HP means nothing, if you don't know how to use it. So 600 HP spec means nothing, or very little to those who seek a well rounded GT.

Bragging rights are for those with egg-shell egoes.