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      07-09-2018, 03:07 PM   #1
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The Chinese political thread

I think China poses a greater danger to democracy than Russia (though Russia sure is trying hard). I'll start this thread with this article.

Spy For Us — Or Never Speak To Your Family Again - BuzzFeed
https://www.buzzfeed.com/meghara/chi...s-surveillance
7 hours ago - ISTANBUL — Spying on behalf of the Chinese state went against everything O. believed in. Yet even as he sat thousands of miles away in a ...
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      07-09-2018, 04:23 PM   #2
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Agreed. Not just spying.

Global security, in general, and economic oppression through outright theft as well as unfair trade practices. The only saving grace is that their military (Navy in particular), thought made to be seen as highly dangerous and effective, is little more than a green water fleet with a few extra toys. Their hegemony will be limited by the lack of an ability to project power for the next 25 or so years. I don't know what will occur after that.

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      07-09-2018, 05:47 PM   #3
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I’m so glad someone made a thread about this so we can all discuss China.

They are a sleeping giant.
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      07-09-2018, 05:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
I’m so glad someone made a thread about this so we can all discuss China.

They are a sleeping giant.
More like a glass cannon they might do massive damage at first but will shatter into a billion pieces immediately afterwards
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      07-09-2018, 05:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
More like a glass cannon they might do massive damage at first but will shatter into a billion pieces immediately afterwards
“Might do massive damage at first.”

Yeah, no biggie.

What makes you think they’re a “glass cannon?”
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      07-09-2018, 06:02 PM   #6
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They just want what others have wanted for a long time - to be the the USA replacement for the world.

China's reach is more of a soft power than a hard one though. They are manipulating other countries and their own citizens with money, jobs and a promise of a better life.
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      07-09-2018, 06:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
“Might do massive damage at first.”

Yeah, no biggie.

What makes you think they’re a “glass cannon?”

Omg I can't get a smart phone for cheap for a few years it the end of the world

Meanwhile they can't do anything militarily while they have revolts occupying the army they do have due to starvation and poverty
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      07-09-2018, 06:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Agreed. Not just spying.

Global security, in general, and economic oppression through outright theft as well as unfair trade practices. The only saving grace is that their military (Navy in particular), thought made to be seen as highly dangerous and effective, is little more than a green water fleet with a few extra toys. Their hegemony will be limited by the lack of an ability to project power for the next 25 or so years. I don't know what will occur after that.

Cheers-mk
They are attempting to be big brother and implement the government of "1984", maybe without the wars.
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      07-09-2018, 06:49 PM   #9
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Something perhaps we can all agree on in this forum?
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      07-09-2018, 06:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mingwan View Post
I’m so glad someone made a thread about this so we can all discuss China.

They are a sleeping giant.
They NEVER sleep ...
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      07-10-2018, 12:56 AM   #11
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They have already fundamentally changed the world for the negative. Assuming you think principles, humanism, etc matter.

If you look at the history of empires, their rise and fall, it looks like the path is already set for China. And we quite literally handed them the keys which is on the surface inexplicable, but when you dig deeper and realize a lot of people became very wealthy in the process of giving them the keys then it does make more sense.

But to re iterate it looks as if the torch has already passed to them. Usually the next power on the world stage is christened far before they realize military might. We are in that phase right now. The one where they see the glimmer of their true strength and have the confidence developing. While the current power of the day (us) is caught hamstrung and it's only solution is to squander itself even further for reasons unknown. This pattern literally keeps repeating similar to the story line of the matrix.

But the official handover doesn't happen until military might is established. That comes next.

Usually in a dramatic event, battle or war that forces them to Marshall their fundamental strength towards the military.

Persia, Greece, Rome, Spain, England, America. The rise for each (and many others) has been the same story over and over.

What is different is that we gave them the keys. We squabble like scotts while they are patient.

We were supposed to be the eternal ones as we carried ourselves completely differently from those before us. We realized our own potential fate so we tried to change the script. So we created the Pax Americana. We created a world order shaped in our image. We promoted a form of humanism so radical for its time it was not seen since the Cyrus cylinder. We created numerous proxies shaped in our image who not only would be our allies but carry our culture for us around the world. We never entered into wars on behalf of other countries (tangling alliances). We never made enemies for no reason then to make enemies or on behalf of other countries. Most importantly we never handed over our qualitative edge in military, science, technology to foreign countries.

But something happened and the order of the day changed, to go against each of these things one by one over the past 30-40 years now.

And so you see we are in that special place in history where the next world power has already been established, but we just don't know it yet. And when we do realize it we will spend every last dime on wars in the Middle East, endless palace intrigue and of course the famous end move, conversion of the fundamentals of our government.

All of this is easily accessible through knowledge of history. But most people like to be stupid, or put more nicely, keep their head in the sand.

One of my famous quotes which ironically comes from bill gates:
"We always overestimate the change that will occur in the next two years and underestimate the change that will occur in the next 10. Don't let yourself be lulled into inaction". I do use that quote often in life.

As a nation, that quote literally describes what we have seen in this past generation. While we have been consumed by literally made up threats about the Middle East, we handed the keys over. You still see it today, people all over the "western world" are consumed by this and who are the real winners? We spend time trying to decide who is the better blind patriot. Or which religion is righteous and which is "evil". We attack the people who are our most natural allies, etc.. We eat ourselves alive and just keep handing over the keys. Smart.

But let's get back to the real problem. Those damn immigrants and roe v wade right? Stupid.
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      07-10-2018, 02:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
I think China poses a greater danger to democracy than Russia (though Russia sure is trying hard). I'll start this thread with this article.

Spy For Us — Or Never Speak To Your Family Again - BuzzFeed
https://www.buzzfeed.com/meghara/chi...s-surveillance
7 hours ago - ISTANBUL — Spying on behalf of the Chinese state went against everything O. believed in. Yet even as he sat thousands of miles away in a ...
A threat to democracy? How can something already undemocratic can be possibly a threat to democracy, as for U.S. internal matter, greatest threat to democracy is electing people who want to destroy that very democracy that elected them.
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      07-10-2018, 05:31 AM   #13
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A threat to democracy?
Real Dodger, as usual shy, he wanted to say "a threat to US"
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      07-10-2018, 07:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c63er View Post
They have already fundamentally changed the world for the negative. Assuming you think principles, humanism, etc matter.

If you look at the history of empires, their rise and fall, it looks like the path is already set for China. And we quite literally handed them the keys which is on the surface inexplicable, but when you dig deeper and realize a lot of people became very wealthy in the process of giving them the keys then it does make more sense.

But to re iterate it looks as if the torch has already passed to them. Usually the next power on the world stage is christened far before they realize military might. We are in that phase right now. The one where they see the glimmer of their true strength and have the confidence developing. While the current power of the day (us) is caught hamstrung and it's only solution is to squander itself even further for reasons unknown. This pattern literally keeps repeating similar to the story line of the matrix.

But the official handover doesn't happen until military might is established. That comes next.

Usually in a dramatic event, battle or war that forces them to Marshall their fundamental strength towards the military.

Persia, Greece, Rome, Spanish, English, America. The rise for each (and many others) has been the same story over and over.

What is different is that we gave them the keys. We squabble like scotts while they are patient.

We were supposed to be the eternal empire as we carried ourselves complexly differently. Importantly we achieved such a high level of general societal knowledge and education that we knew our own eventual fate and so we endeavored to change the pattern of repetition through history. We created a world order shaped in our image. We promoted a form of humanism so radical for its time it was not seen since the Cyrus cylinder. We created numerous proxies shaped in our image who not only would be our allies but carry our culture for us around the world. We never entered into wars on behalf of other countries (tangling alliances). We never made enemies for no reason then to make enemies or on behalf of other countries. Most importantly we never handed over our qualitative edge in military, science, technology to foreign countries.

But something happened and the order of the day changed, to go against all each of these things one by one over the past 30-40 years now.

And so you see we are in that special place in history where the next world power has already been established, but we just don't know it yet. And when we do realize it we will spend every last dime on wars in the Middle East, endless palace intrigue and of course the famous end move, conversion of the fundamentals of our government.

All of this is easily accessible through knowledge of history. But most people like to be stupid, or put more nicely, keep their head in the sand.

One of my famous quotes which ironically comes from bill gates:
"We always overestimate the change that will occur in the next two years and underestimate the change that will occur in the next 10. Don't let yourself be lulled into inaction". I do use that quote often in life.

But as a nation, that quote literally described what we have seen in this past generation. While we have been consumed by literally made up threats about the Middle East, we handed the keys over. You still see it today, people all over the "western world" are consumed by this and who are the real winners? We eat ourselves alive and just keep handing over the keys. Smart.

But let's get back to the real problem. Those damn immigrants and roe v wade right? Stupid.
Well said.

I always follow the money, technology, and military capabilities. They are already building a monetary and technological foundation with a cyber-military capability that is already proving to be extremely toxic to its opponents. The third leg, military, should be bifurcated into two legs: equipment and capabilities/doctrine.

Equipment is relatively easy. Anyone can purchase non-capital equipment, planes, drones, missiles, tanks, etc. Capital equipment, strategic assets require time to develop/purchase. This is where the Chinese penchant for patience is an asset. Over 20 years ago they bided their time until they found an administration that was willing to play ball and voila...Hughes and Loral provided the technology to take their missile programs 35-40 years in the future in less than 5. This is how they work.

Lastly lets consider doctrine: This also requires time as well as experience. Time, once again, they have...experience against hardened and experienced troops, they do not and cannot develop it without going to war.

I'll also add footprint and force projection to the mix as an aside. They don't have the strategic footprint nor the capabilities to project power...as of now. I would estimate that in 30 years we'll be having a bit of a different conversation.

Cheers-mk
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      07-10-2018, 10:55 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c63er View Post
, humanism, etc matter.

If you look at the history of empires, their rise and fall, it looks like the path is already set for China. And we quite literally handed them the keys which is on the surface inexplicable, but when you dig deeper and realize a lot of people became very wealthy in the process of giving them the keys then it does make more sense.
Stupid.
Not always. See Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Also Japanese empire, and post war Japan (economically).
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      07-10-2018, 12:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
More like a glass cannon they might do massive damage at first but will shatter into a billion pieces immediately afterwards
Well the problem is that US citizens won't stand for massive damage and the people that caused it will be gone and new ones in to try and repair it.

The Chinese are more set up politically and culturally to take this fight to the end, however long that may be. The US is most definitely not.
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      07-10-2018, 12:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
I think China poses a greater danger to democracy than Russia (though Russia sure is trying hard). I'll start this thread with this article.

Spy For Us — Or Never Speak To Your Family Again - BuzzFeed
https://www.buzzfeed.com/meghara/chi...s-surveillance
7 hours ago - ISTANBUL — Spying on behalf of the Chinese state went against everything O. believed in. Yet even as he sat thousands of miles away in a ...
Russia/Putin will be and already are in some ways, especially economically their bitch.
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      07-10-2018, 12:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Omg I can't get a smart phone for cheap for a few years it the end of the world

Meanwhile they can't do anything militarily while they have revolts occupying the army they do have due to starvation and poverty
And we've seen what they do with those revolts and keep marching on. It doesn't matter strategically if their military is occupied. Nobody is going to invade or start a full out war with them because of the nuke threat unless it is the absolute last resort. Which, it may end up being, for everyone if it goes down that way.
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      07-10-2018, 12:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
Real Dodger, as usual shy, he wanted to say "a threat to US"
Nah, he got it right. Putin is messing with pretty much every democracy type of government today.
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      07-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #20
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The thing is the Chinese leadership is willing to play the long game, patiently, like a game of chess.
When Chinese people claim "5,000 years of history and heritage" it's not so much a dick measuring statement but more of a statement that says "we've been there and done that, now we'll be back".

They are definitely not short-sighted and everything they've been doing, every investment, every political move (or lack thereof) has been closely calculated for long-term benefits.

The US should certainly take some notes on thinking more in terms of long-term consequences, or be replaced it will.
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      07-10-2018, 01:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
They just want what others have wanted for a long time - to be the the USA replacement for the world.

China's reach is more of a soft power than a hard one though. They are manipulating other countries and their own citizens with money, jobs and a promise of a better life.
One could argue that it has/is already happening. They are the largest economy in the world, the largest exporter, they are the largest foreign holder of US debt.
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      07-10-2018, 01:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
One could argue that it has/is already happening. They are the largest economy in the world, the largest exporter, they are the largest foreign holder of US debt.
They are not the biggest economy. They may be by 2020.
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