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      07-10-2018, 01:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
They are not the biggest economy. They may be by 2020.
All depends on how you measure it.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...01rank.html#ch
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...my-not-the-u-s

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      07-10-2018, 11:23 PM   #24
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Qin Yongmin: Prominent Chinese dissident jailed for 13 years http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-44789492
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      07-25-2018, 07:33 AM   #25
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American Airlines, Delta and Cathay Pacific bow to China Taiwan pressure http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-44948599

Not good.
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      07-25-2018, 10:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
American Airlines, Delta and Cathay Pacific bow to China Taiwan pressure http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-44948599

Not good.
China's internal affair, actually. No?
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      07-25-2018, 10:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
China's internal affair, actually. No?
No.
Have you read the book "1984"? Or "Animal Farm"?
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      07-25-2018, 10:49 AM   #28
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And they have skynet.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1517351
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      07-25-2018, 10:55 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
No.
Have you read the book "1984"? Or "Animal Farm"?
1984 - yes, Animal Farm - no, but know the story
But I feel where you are going and I think you have very outdated ideas about Russia and China ))
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      07-25-2018, 11:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
1984 - yes, Animal Farm - no, but know the story
But I feel where you are going and I think you have very outdated ideas about Russia and China ))
No. Dictatorships typically have alliances with other dictatorships because they are less threatening than democracies (See Nazi Germany and Soviet
anti-agression pact, Nazi-Japan-Italy pact, current China-Russia-Syria-Venezuela backpatting). They abhor freedom of expression and a free press.

Why does China care what American Airlines says or advertises about Taiwan?
(Hint: The Taiwanese have a legitimate government that they chose. The Communist chinese govt. has no such legitamacy).
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      07-25-2018, 11:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
China's internal affair, actually. No?
Not really internal. Taiwan was the former non Communist China. The Communists won the civil war and the Nationalist Chinese (former Chinese govt) moved to Taiwan.

Before, everyone recognized Taiwan as the "official" China. With China's rise to power, everyone started recognizing mainland China as the real China. Taiwan got marginalized and many countries stopped recognizing it as a separate country. The US is one of the few countries that work with Taiwan and treat it as separate from China. The US sells arms to the Taiwanese military and trains them in the US.

So think of it as this way, it's like North and South Korea. Same but with different govts.
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      07-25-2018, 12:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Ivanov View Post
China's internal affair, actually. No?
Which "China"?

Where everything still stands, there are still two official "Chinas".
But we live in a world where you're only allowed to recognize one as the "real" China (One China Policy).
These days, most countries recognize Beijing/mainland China.
And if you recognize the mainland Chinese government, then you have to pretend the government on Taipei doesn't exist.

Z K is right when he says the best analogous current situation is that of North and South Korea. I've always used the same analogy to explain it in simpleton terms to my friends and such.
The main difference is that there is no such thing as a "One Korea Policy", which makes things a little less complicated than the Taiwan-Mainland China situation (where there's an active "One China Policy").

In the end, this is all just stupid semantics.
I'm not sympathetic to Beijing's politicizing of daily matters that were previously irrelevant.
It's not "technically" or legally wrong to say that Taipei is part of "China", for example, since it technically is constitutionally bound as such by both governments. Taipei, Taiwan is officially part of the Republic of China, but not the People's Republic of China.
But, not everyone studies poli-sci or history.
And for the purposes of general information, for the average Joe booking a flight to Taiwan, listing TPE as "Taipei, China" can lead to many problems, since colloquially, the term "China" when used by itself mostly refers to Mainland China.

First is the Visa issue:
A US Citizen holding a US passport is visa-exempted upon landing in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau.
But, if that same US passport holder steps into mainland China, he needs a Visa for entry.

Second is the Currency:
Mainland China uses the Renminbi (CNY/RMB). Taiwan uses the New Taiwan Dollar (NT). Hong Kong uses the Hong Kong Dollar (HKD). Macau uses the Macanese pataca (MOP).
Try using RMB in Taiwan or NTD in Shanghai. You're gonna get laughed at.
Make the same mistake at a Karaoke bar and you might even get your ass kicked.

Third is language:
All Chinese right? Well yeah, but it's a bit more intricate than that.
Imagine you're in charge of business development in an expanding company and you'd like to set-up shop in the "Greater China Region" (a real PC business term, I'm not joking).
So now what? Just find a Chinese guy? Print some pamphlets in Chinese?
Nope, not that easy.
Taiwan and Mainland China speak Mandarin officially.
Hong Kong and Macau speak Cantonese.
Now, here's where it gets interesting...Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macau write in Traditional Chinese script, whereas mainland China writes using Simplified Chinese script.
So basically, at a minimum, you have to print material in two scripts and anything oral/spoken (i.e., video narration), also needs to be available in the two spoken varieties.


There's more beyond what I've listed. But this is what happens when you politicize daily matters that ends up confusing Joe Shmoe.
There's a reason why the above have long been listed separately from "China (mainland)", because the laws, customs, currency, standards, and regulations are entirely different.
It's not some Western conspiracy to split up China.
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      07-25-2018, 03:25 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
Which "China"?

Where everything still stands, there are still two official "Chinas".
But we live in a world where you're only allowed to recognize one as the "real" China (One China Policy).
These days, most countries recognize Beijing/mainland China.
And if you recognize the mainland Chinese government, then you have to pretend the government on Taipei doesn't exist.
As Law says, pretty accurate.

China is using its powers to coerce Taiwan to join mainland China. It's kinda a "carrot and stick" approach.

China uses it's soft power such as offering special work visas to Taiwan people to work in China, offering funding for Taiwan private companies to open shop in China to get Taiwanese people to like China. Using media such as entertainment - social media, movies, music to show a unified China to younger generations.

It also uses the stick, things like going after private companies to only refer to the one China, not letting Taiwan fly their flag at the Olympics, not letting Taiwan participate in the WHO, and going after foreign governments to not recognize Taiwan.

And in the end, if it doesn't work... China will resort to military invasion. To which the US has committed to protect Taiwan... but who knows what the US will do in such a situation - especially now that China is the world's #2 military power. There's many articles on how such a military operation will occur... Taiwan, despite having modern US military technology and training (M1A2 tanks, AH64E helicopters, F16 fighters etc), can not repel the huge numbers and budget that China can field. Most likely defenses will collapse in days without US assistance.

Of course military action is probably distant, but it's a real threat. That's why Taiwan maintains a active military with a mandatory draft for all men after high school. They run invasion drills and practice tactics to repel Chinese invasion.
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      07-25-2018, 03:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
As Law says, pretty accurate.

China is using its powers to coerce Taiwan to join mainland China. It's kinda a "carrot and stick" approach.

China uses it's soft power such as offering special work visas to Taiwan people to work in China, offering funding for Taiwan private companies to open shop in China to get Taiwanese people to like China. Using media such as entertainment - social media, movies, music to show a unified China to younger generations.

It also uses the stick, things like going after private companies to only refer to the one China, not letting Taiwan fly their flag at the Olympics, not letting Taiwan participate in the WHO, and going after foreign governments to not recognize Taiwan.

And in the end, if it doesn't work... China will resort to military invasion. To which the US has committed to protect Taiwan... but who knows what the US will do in such a situation - especially now that China is the world's #2 military power. There's many articles on how such a military operation will occur... Taiwan, despite having modern US military technology and training (M1A2 tanks, AH64E helicopters, F16 fighters etc), can not repel the huge numbers and budget that China can field. Most likely defenses will collapse in days without US assistance.

Of course military action is probably distant, but it's a real threat. That's why Taiwan maintains a active military with a mandatory draft for all men after high school. They run invasion drills and practice tactics to repel Chinese invasion.
All the Taiwanese need is a credible deterent threat that would ensure huge Chinese casualties. The Chinese will not invade unless success is ensured. They (the communists) can't afford to lose face on the domestic front. And the Taiwanese would be HUGELY more motivated than any Chinese army recruit storming Taipei. They would have their hard earned freedom to lose.
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      07-25-2018, 03:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
All the Taiwanese need is a credible deterent threat that would ensure huge Chinese casualties. The Chinese will not invade unless success is ensured. They (the communists) can't afford to lose face on the domestic front. And the Taiwanese would be HUGELY more motivated than any Chinese army recruit storming Taipei. They would have their hard earned freedom to lose.
Which is why they haven't gone down this route... yet.

The carrot and stick approach is kinda working. Because of China's sanctions and actions, Taiwan's economy is not doing well and China's is booming. Many Taiwanese people are going to China for work and vice versa.

Neither side wants military confrontation. But it's kinda tense as all it takes is a accidental missile launch or someone to fire on a Chinese boat to set off a possible war.
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      07-25-2018, 04:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
All the Taiwanese need is a credible deterent threat that would ensure huge Chinese casualties. The Chinese will not invade unless success is ensured. They (the communists) can't afford to lose face on the domestic front. And the Taiwanese would be HUGELY more motivated than any Chinese army recruit storming Taipei. They would have their hard earned freedom to lose.
Military action is not the preferred choice for either side, especially not for Taiwan. For mainland China, it is also not preferred since they still see it as civil war, meaning they would see it as killing their own brethren.

Taiwan maintains an active conscription/military draft policy for all able-bodied males between age 18-35. However, Taiwan has been liberalizing over the last two decades and the duration of training and the intensity of the training has been significantly decreased.
It's fair to say that the ROC Army was able to give the PLA a run for its money during the Cold War, but not so much anymore...the PLA is thoroughly modernizing, while the ROC Army has plateau'd or fallen behind, which is why Taipei is betting strongly that the US would come to Taiwan's aid.
The US, due to the One China Policy, does not officially comment on its stance on this, but its actions through the Taiwan Relations Act and arms sales shows at least some commitment.

With the [overall] increase in economic ties and exchange of populations, the likelihood of war is theoretically less, but there are "red lines" of which not to cross. The PRC has made it clear that there are at least 2 immediate triggers that will be met with zero-compromise military action:
1) Taiwan independence - Taiwan is de facto self-ruling under the government known as the Republic of China. This is a legacy of the Chinese Civil War. Beijing is okay with that because "Two Chinas" to them is a lesser evil than "One China, One Taiwan". The day that Taipei drops the "China" from its name and changes it to "Republic of Taiwan" would be where first blood is drawn.
2) Foreign military invasion - This one is simple. If a foreign power (i.e., non-Chinese) invades or occupies Taiwan, then the PLA would respond as if its own sovereign territory had been invaded.

The third and final one is the one you just mentioned, when the PLA is determined that success is ensured. One can fathom to guess that this means that if no long-term sincerity can be reached with Taiwan, and the PLA has determined it has the clear upper hand, then boom.
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      07-25-2018, 04:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post

The third and final one is the one you just mentioned, when the PLA is determined that success is ensured. One can fathom to guess that this means that if no long-term sincerity can be reached with Taiwan, and the PLA has determined it has the clear upper hand, then boom.
I can see this happening as China's military gets more powerful and Taiwan's shrinks.

The one time they landed in Taiwan in 1949, the PLA landed light infantry in wooden boats.... Most of their boats were sunk by Taiwan Navy ships and the ones who made it were surrounded by fresh US-made tanks, artillery and army regiments... needless to say, the Chinese was defeated. All PLA forces were lost.

Today, the story would be very different.
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      07-25-2018, 05:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
I can see this happening as China's military gets more powerful and Taiwan's shrinks.

The one time they landed in Taiwan in 1949, the PLA landed light infantry in wooden boats.... Most of their boats were sunk by Taiwan Navy ships and the ones who made it were surrounded by fresh US-made tanks, artillery and army regiments... needless to say, the Chinese was defeated. All PLA forces were lost.

Today, the story would be very different.
The famous Battle of Kuningtou.
It's funny the Nationalists up until that point lost basically every important engagement with the Commies, until this one, and it turns out this was the most important victory that would change the fate of Taiwan forever.

For the uninitiated, this islets, known as Kinmen or Quemoy is basically the "Chinese DMZ", or as close as it gets.
The failure of the Chinese Communists to capture the islands in 1949 thwarted any future attempt at invading Taiwan and Kinmen is super close to the mainland Chinese city of Xiamen, literally a 5 minute boat ride.
For decades, there was psyops and propaganda warfare between the two sides here.
The islands to this day remains under Taipei's administration.


Here's the smallest of the islets with the ROC/Taiwan Flag with the towering skyscrapers of Xiamen (mainland China) in the background.
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      08-02-2018, 08:10 AM   #39
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http://money.cnn.com/2018/08/02/tech...hip/index.html

Not a good development for the people of china,
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      08-02-2018, 11:10 AM   #40
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This article is about internet streamers... but the article mentions "Red Army heroes" during the Nanjing massacre. WTF?

That is truly scary that Chinese people actually think the Communists were a part of the battle at Nanjing. The real heroes was the KMT Nationalist army that fought and died at Nanjing against the Japanese.

The Communists were running away and nearly annihilated when the Japanese invaded. It was the Japanese that saved the Communists from defeat because the Nationalists had to change direction and focus on the immediate threat. Fighting the Japanese drained the Nationalist forces and allowed the Communists to build up to ultimately defeat the Nationalists.

It is another sign of the CCP twisting history to show themselves in a favorable light. And the Chinese public seems to follow the brainwashing.

https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-l...rticle/2157827
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      08-02-2018, 11:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
This article is about internet streamers... but the article mentions "Red Army heroes" during the Nanjing massacre. WTF?

That is truly scary that Chinese people actually think the Communists were a part of the battle at Nanjing. The real heroes was the KMT Nationalist army that fought and died at Nanjing against the Japanese.

The Communists were running away and nearly annihilated when the Japanese invaded. It was the Japanese that saved the Communists from defeat because the Nationalists had to change direction and focus on the immediate threat. Fighting the Japanese drained the Nationalist forces and allowed the Communists to build up to ultimately defeat the Nationalists.

It is another sign of the CCP twisting history to show themselves in a favorable light. And the Chinese public seems to follow the brainwashing.

https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-l...rticle/2157827
Ironically, I've read that many Germans helped shelter chinese in the city during the incident.
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      08-02-2018, 12:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
This article is about internet streamers... but the article mentions "Red Army heroes" during the Nanjing massacre. WTF?

That is truly scary that Chinese people actually think the Communists were a part of the battle at Nanjing. The real heroes was the KMT Nationalist army that fought and died at Nanjing against the Japanese.

The Communists were running away and nearly annihilated when the Japanese invaded. It was the Japanese that saved the Communists from defeat because the Nationalists had to change direction and focus on the immediate threat. Fighting the Japanese drained the Nationalist forces and allowed the Communists to build up to ultimately defeat the Nationalists.

It is another sign of the CCP twisting history to show themselves in a favorable light. And the Chinese public seems to follow the brainwashing.

https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-l...rticle/2157827
100%...I can't stress this enough.
The Communists have, for several generations now, propagated the lie that they were instrumental in the resistance against the Japanese.
When in reality, they were nothing but a small group of bandit rebels, hiding in the hills and "armpit of the nation" areas, their forces nearly depleted.
The brunt of the war was fought by the Nationalists.
Unfortunately, so were the socio-economic consequences.
Wartime = famine and despair and this was an easy way for the Communists to call the Nationalist government inept and slowly gain numbers in the shadows
After the war with Japan, the Communists, with captured Japanese equipment & covert Soviet support, would wage war against tired Nationalist soldiers who had just finished fighting against Japan and just want to go home.
If anything, the Japanese invasion was what ultimately saved the Communists and doomed the Nationalists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Dodger View Post
Ironically, I've read that many Germans helped shelter chinese in the city during the incident.
Absolutely. There were lots of foreigners present in Nanking at the time (since it was the capital of the Nationalist Gov't).

Not only that, but even more ironically, the Germans (i'm talking Nazis) were instrumental in the modernization of the Chinese Nationalist forces.
There was some very close cooperation between the two.
Hitler Youth and Nazi advisers alike were often invited to China.
If you look at all the elite Chinese divisions from the era, you'll notice their equipment are sourced directly from the Wehrmacht, most notably their helmets. Of course, the end goal was supposed to be for these elite divisions to be used against the commies, but in the end, they died as heroes fighting against the Japanese.
Remember, the Second Sino-Japanese war began before WWII broke out in Europe. So for a few years, ironically, Nazi Germany was actually training and advising the Chinese Nationalist armed forces on how to beat the Japanese in battle.




In fact, Hitler spoke of the Chinese and Japanese as "Honorary Aryans" and did not necessarily see them as "inferior.
But, Hitler needed to choose an Asian power to team up with, particularly one that could give the Soviets more than just a bloody nose in the Far East...eventually, he would choose Japan and due to the Second Sino-Japanese War, was forced to cut off cooperation with Nationalist China.

Chiang Kai-shek's own [adopted] son, Chiang Wei-kuo, was sent to Germany to study at the Wehrmacht's military academy and later served as a soldier in the Wehrmacht.
In fact, he even commanded a Panzer unit during the Anschluss of Austria and was due to serve in the Invasion of Poland, before eventually getting recalled to China.

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      08-02-2018, 04:44 PM   #43
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Didn't realized the Nazi connection... but I did know a lot of the elite units in the Nationalist army were trained in Germany. The Soviets also played both sides by supporting the Nationalists but also supporting the Communists secretly.

Anyway, China has been changing it's history to make the Communists look good. I don't see this changing in the future. Xi Jingping is taking a hard line on conservative Communist ideals and "patriotic education".

They want to think Communist China has a long and glorious history... but it was only founded in 1949 and so it's really new as a country.

This has scary implications in the future. Think large groups of "patriotic" Chinese that all listen to the party rhetoric and follow without thought.
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      08-02-2018, 06:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Didn't realized the Nazi connection... but I did know a lot of the elite units in the Nationalist army were trained in Germany. The Soviets also played both sides by supporting the Nationalists but also supporting the Communists secretly.
Yeah, the Nazi connection was pretty deep and lasted for 15 years or so from 1926-1941.
It's not difficult to understand why though.
Prior to WWII and the Holocaust, there was good reason (especially among nationalist parties like the Kuomintang) to look up to Germany as an example of how nation-building and self-strengthening through nationalism can be an effective way to pull a country out of chaos & depression and modernize swiftly. Of course, the KMT had no expansionist intentions, but there were certainly many aspects of Nazi Germany that were admirable to them in their vision of future China.

Yeah, ironic that both the Nationalists and the Communists were essentially organized through the help of the Comintern, with party structures along Leninist lines.
In a way this whole thing is a bit sad because Sun Yat-sen had pleaded for help to the US and other powers ("hey guys I'm trying to help bring democracy to China, can you help?"), but the only olive branch that was extended was from the Comintern.
Even though Sun wasn't a communist he didn't hate the Chicoms like Chiang did.
In a way, he found some compatibility with his principle of People's Livelihood and saw to it that both parties had the intention of bringing change to the Chinese people.
It was to that end, that the KMT formed its first alliance with the Communists and this is also the reason Sun is still respected in mainland China where Chiang was shunned.
The Comintern and Soviet advisers certainly played both sides, convincing the Commies to piggyback on the KMT ranks and train through the Whampoa Military Academy, while on the other end, convincing the KMT to accept this arrangement in return for support.
So in an ironic kind of way, it was through this piggybacking, with the KMT doing most of the fighting to retake Northern China from the Warlords, that the communists even became a political party.
Prior to this, they were pretty much just a book-club of Marxists nerds (not exaggerating).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Anyway, China has been changing it's history to make the Communists look good. I don't see this changing in the future. Xi Jingping is taking a hard line on conservative Communist ideals and "patriotic education".

They want to think Communist China has a long and glorious history... but it was only founded in 1949 and so it's really new as a country.

This has scary implications in the future. Think large groups of "patriotic" Chinese that all listen to the party rhetoric and follow without thought.
Yeah, this is the beginning of something much more serious.
We're already seeing it in some academic circles, recently there has been some run-ins between Chinese students and academia in places such as Australia.
This has occurred at other universities as well and is certainly becoming a more common occurrence.

So far, it's been mainly limited to territorial disputes and topics like Taiwan and Hong Kong, but we can certainly imagine that the scale can potentially increase in the future and expand into other topics (imagine Tiananmen, the Second Sino-Japanese War/WWII, etc.)
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