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      05-02-2017, 09:03 PM   #1
nanotech
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Quasi-streetable track pads - why so hard?

Are there any track-focused pads made for the 135i stock calipers that can be driven on the street with appropriate care and caution?

Right now I run HP Plus during track season, which are great until they are terrifying. Gap between a couple corners can be full torque to nothing. Tolerable on short tracks braking from 120 or so, but terrifying at greater speeds when they go away.

Looking for a pad upgrade that doesn't require a pad swap for every track day, with the mindset of working tolerably well on the street (noise, dust not an issue - just want reasonable cold/medium stopping pressure). I am willing to take a pretty severe streetability hit, as long as I don't have to put 200C into the pads before they generate any stopping torque.

Ideal options appear to be Hawk Street Race and Pagid Orange. Neither appear to be available for the 135i stock POS calipers. EBC Yellow are potential options but reviews of these pads are terrible, plus they are rotor murdering machines.

Short of a caliper swap, is there a stronger pad than the HP Plus that I can run on the street and still stop at a stop sign without a warmup lap? If so, where can I find them and order them?

(Yes, I'm asking the impossible; I just want a level up from the HP Plus)
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      05-02-2017, 09:45 PM   #2
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PFC 08's

Track pads, that don't squeal on the street. I've never been happier with pads.
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      05-02-2017, 09:51 PM   #3
nanotech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fboutlaw View Post
PFC 08's

Track pads, that don't squeal on the street. I've never been happier with pads.
Thanks. Not cheap, but that's the iron triangle of motorsports I guess. HPA is unfortunately inconvenient from Canada but so be it.

What's your balance of track vs street? How many laps / how many minutes can you run on these pads before they overheat, and how bad are they on the street for cold grip?
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      05-02-2017, 10:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post
Thanks. Not cheap, but that's the iron triangle of motorsports I guess. HPA is unfortunately inconvenient from Canada but so be it.

What's your balance of track vs street? How many laps / how many minutes can you run on these pads before they overheat, and how bad are they on the street for cold grip?
Setup is a bit different as I run a Stoptech BBK with the PFC's...

On track, I've never had overheating issues in 30 minute sessions (BBK helps this a lot). Cold stopping power doesn't feel reduced at all. I know I'm not giving you much to go on, but it's the only compound I found to work.

To add some credibility:

I've run on my BMW: OEM, Cool Carbon, HPS, then swapped to BBK, Stoptech Pads, then the PFC's and have been on them for a few years commuting after about 6 track days. No issues.

Other setups have been Miata: OEM then Wilwood bp-30 compounds, which are comparable to the PFC's in performance once you bed them in (note that these throw sparks during bed-in. Do not drive them in fire prone areas)

Ferrari: OEM, Pagid Yellows - Squealed like crazy under 10mph, reduced stopping force when not heated.
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      05-02-2017, 10:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fboutlaw View Post
To add some credibility:
Wasn't doubting credibility, just trying to compare apples to apples! Thanks for reply!

Not surprised by your Pagid Yellow experience, but very different car obviously. EBC Yellow even worse from reviews I've read. I've run EBC Yellow in the past on an Audi and been very unhappy with results in all scenarios. Pagid is a more serious supplier.

My Miata is also very different, weight is so much less so I would run very different setup on it. However, it's a heavy-ass NC with a PHT and a slushbox for my wife to drive around feeling sporty - it will never see the track as I'd be too ashamed to bring it

So... basically you're telling me just pull the trigger on the StopTech or Brembo kit, and stop pissing around with the weak OE 135i calipers for track use then... You would not be the first to recommend this approach!

Net result. No good compound for shitty 135i calipers and medium track use. However, interesting to hear that the PFC 08 is preferable to you over the default StopTech compound.

PFC 08 sitting in my HPA shopping cart... someone convince me to push Check Out!
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      05-02-2017, 10:50 PM   #6
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ferrodo ds2500.

work flawlessly on the street. the only time I've noticed reduced stopping power is in sub 10c ambient temps and even then it's only on the first stop and only a slight/minor reduction in braking performance.
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      05-02-2017, 11:08 PM   #7
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Some pads for the 135i calipers are increasingly harder and harder to get these days. Ferodo USA has been out of the rear DS2500 pad for the 135i for months now. PFC08...I should check stock and get back to you guys...they may be on the way or already out by this time. Pagid RS29 is a good alternative to the PFC08 with similar characteristics.

The fix would be a high quality BBK up front, slightly larger and thicker rotors along with a proper caliper. Stoptech is a good choice for its entry price and replacement parts cost. Not to mention a very large selection of pad compounds at a very reasonable price.
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      05-02-2017, 11:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
ferrodo ds2500.
These were a contender, but I read stuff like this and get worried they will be as bad as the HP Plus after a few laps.

Additional context: does anyone run Carbotech pads? About 10 yrs ago I had XP12s for my A4 and they were great on the track, but scary as f**k on the street. Had Bobcats for a single track day and then threw them out (OK, used them for the winter).

See Carbotech XP8 and the HPC 08 in the same range when researching.
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      05-02-2017, 11:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autosport View Post
Some pads for the 135i calipers are increasingly harder and harder to get these days. Ferodo USA has been out of the rear DS2500 pad for the 135i for months now. PFC08...I should check stock and get back to you guys...they may be on the way or already out by this time. Pagid RS29 is a good alternative to the PFC08 with similar characteristics.

The fix would be a high quality BBK up front, slightly larger and thicker rotors along with a proper caliper. Stoptech is a good choice for its entry price and replacement parts cost. Not to mention a very large selection of pad compounds at a very reasonable price.
Thanks Harold, much appreciated. I am not keen on spending $4k for a BBK on a car that is quickly becoming a track beater. This is never going to be a competitive Time Attack car, I just want to do 20 mins of lapping without pulling in with brake fade, but on a reasonable budget.

Is the Pagid RS29 about equivalent to the old Orange? Maybe a bit higher temp? Orange was the 4-4 IIRC. Could I reasonably drive the car on occasionally wet summer roads with reasonable tires on these pads?
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      05-02-2017, 11:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post
These were a contender, but I read stuff like this and get worried they will be as bad as the HP Plus after a few laps.
Depends how hard you go and what tyres you're on. For track use you really want upgraded front brakes, I'd probably go a BBK which allows you to remove the pads without pulling of the caliper then swap the pads out after the event.

Alternatively I've heard that brake ducting helps significantly.
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      05-02-2017, 11:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
Alternatively I've heard that brake ducting helps significantly.
Ducting and titanium pad shims are also potential workarounds for my unwillingness to spend $$$$ on a BBK for a 100K mile 9 year old car

However, the main issue I want to address is the HP Plus falling off a cliff on me and causing code browns in heavy braking zones. Predictable drop-off after 15-20 mins would be fine, but sudden failure is no longer acceptable.
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      05-02-2017, 11:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post
I just want to do 20 mins of lapping without pulling in with brake fade, but on a reasonable budget.
cool down lap every 3-4 laps and brake ducting and you'll be sweet on the ferodos, this will also help extend the life of the calipers

No pad is going to last a full 20min session without fading and be good on the street when cold especially with R comp tyres.
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      05-02-2017, 11:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post
Ducting and titanium pad shims are also potential workarounds for my unwillingness to spend $$$$ on a BBK for a 100K mile 9 year old car

However, the main issue I want to address is the HP Plus falling off a cliff on me and causing code browns in heavy braking zones. Predictable drop-off after 15-20 mins would be fine, but sudden failure is no longer acceptable.
Pad shims will make pad fade worse by not allowing the heat to escape through the caliper and brake fluid. But it will help with extending the life of the calipers and chance of boiling your brake fluid.

FWIW I ran 2x 20mins sessions on track with the 2500s before boiling fluid (no pad fade that i could tell). First track day for me essentially so wasn't pushing too hard. Since upgraded to motul RBF.
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      05-02-2017, 11:37 PM   #14
nanotech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
Pad shims will make pad fade worse by not allowing the heat to escape through the caliper and brake fluid.
Good to know, another mod to skip I can rebuild the calipers a couple times a year if need be, that's weekend work. I just want to skip the 45 min x2 + tools required for a pad swap for an afternoon track day.

Quote:
FWIW I ran 2x 20mins sessions on track with the 2500s before boiling fluid (no pad fade that i could tell). First track day for me essentially so wasn't pushing too hard. Since upgraded to motul RBF.
I'm told I brake hard and late Per your earlier reply, I'm probably asking for too much, to use the car that hard and still be able to street it (no matter how uncomfortably). Tires are going to be Direzza II SS, so sub-R but grippy. Sourcing those has also been hard so PSS are the fallbacks; predictable but less grippy obviously.

Looking for an upgrade from the scary HP Plus pads. Having some predictability in fade is probably more important to me than running a full run group without cool-downs. Going from full brake torque to basically pedal to the floor between a single set of heavy braking corners is seriously scary on the short tracks I run with VMax of 120mph. Upgrading to tracks with VMax of 145+ is not currently an option for me on the HP Plus.

Having no brakes is kind of scary at track pace...
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      05-02-2017, 11:42 PM   #15
nanotech
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Is the ECS brake ducting kit worth it? Previous reading implied that brake ducting was hard on these cars, not sure if anyone has solved that issue without problems with turning radius and other issues.
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      05-02-2017, 11:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post

Looking for an upgrade from the scary HP Plus pads. Having some predictability in fade is probably more important to me than running a full run group without cool-downs. Going from full brake torque to basically pedal to the floor between a single set of heavy braking corners is seriously scary on the short tracks I run with VMax of 120mph.

Having no brakes is kind of scary at track pace...
Agreed no brakes is scary. I've always thought pedal to floor was fluid rather than pads. I just assumed there was some predictability in pads letting go whereas fluid when you boil it that's it.
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      05-02-2017, 11:48 PM   #17
nanotech
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RBF600 or 660 shouldn't boil that rapidly corner to corner. Even ATE200 should be OK in terms of predictability.

I've read a few threads re: heavy cars and HP Plus falling off a cliff, and it matches my own experience. I've experienced boiling fluids before and it's a more gradual/predictable drop-off in performance.

Anyways, we all know these calipers suck, but absent a BBK falling in my lap, I'm working with what I've got. Pads are cheap. Gonna try that first and see if I can regain confidence in my ability to stay four wheels on and shiny side up
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      05-02-2017, 11:49 PM   #18
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Looks like the ferodos give plenty of warning they start dropping off around 500C still providing a decent amount of friction at 700C.

Guess you'd need to compare this to the HP plus.
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      05-02-2017, 11:55 PM   #19
nanotech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by titium View Post
Looks like the ferodos give plenty of warning they start dropping off around 500C still providing a decent amount of friction at 700C.

Guess you'd need to compare this to the HP plus.
I've measured the rotor temps at 460C with an IR thermometer after a cool-down lap on a slower track, so I have to figure at peak braking they are well north of 700C.

The HP Plus are only really rated to about 800C (Mu goes to basically zero past that I think!), whereas track-focused pads support up to about 1000C for something like the HP Street Race/Pagid Orange, 1300C+ for "real" race pads.
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      05-03-2017, 12:00 AM   #20
nanotech
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FYI this is the Mu chart for Hawk products. I don't believe the HP Plus dropoff one bit, but you can see the gap between Plus and Street Race.

TireRack HP compounds chart
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      05-03-2017, 10:23 AM   #21
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nanotech , Mike you just need to be easier on your brakes and your problem is solved...I've seen you take out all your aggression on your poor brakes LOL

So another option is....to drive slower
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      05-03-2017, 12:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanotech View Post

Looking for a pad upgrade that doesn't require a pad swap for every track day, with the mindset of working tolerably well on the street (noise, dust not an issue - just want reasonable cold/medium stopping pressure). I am willing to take a pretty severe streetability hit, as long as I don't have to put 200C into the pads before they generate any stopping torque.

Ideal options appear to be Hawk Street Race and Pagid Orange. Neither appear to be available for the 135i stock POS calipers. EBC Yellow are potential options but reviews of these pads are terrible, plus they are rotor murdering machines.
Let me give you a counter opinion on EBC pads.

I've run both the Yellows and Blues as a street/track pad. I have not found them to be rotor aggressive at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

I have put 12+ track days on the factory front rotors using exclusively the EBC pads and haven't replaced them yet. They are just beginning to show signs of ripples/grooves and are taking longer to bed new sets of pads.

The price of EBC pads is very attractive. I can pick up a set of fronts in Canada for $170 +tax (incl shipping), vs $400 for Hawk. The biggest downside is that the pad wear rate is faster due to the softer pad material. But I'm saving on rotors.

EBC yellow: More initial bite than the blues, probably higher mu too giving less pedal pressure required. Faster wear rate than blue. Brutal brake dust.

EBC blue: My current pad of choice. Endurance compound puts up with the abuse of heavy 135 better. Good but not great initial bite. Brake dust is surprising low for a track pad. I get 4-5 days at Area27 before I want to change the pads. On the street they work from cold, but you need a couple of stops to get the best out of them. No squealing, some mild brake noise upon application.
WARNING: When bedding the pads, the first time you get them really hot, you will get significant green pad fade as they off gas. Had a bit of a moment coming down a hill...felt like I was pushing on a rock, but car wasn't slowing down fast enough.
That said, once I had established a transfer layer on the rotor, subsequent sets didn't seem to exhibit this as much. But maybe I'm just being more cautious. YMMV

General comments:
The best mod I did for my brakes was getting rid of the splash shield. This allowed much better airflow around the entire disc. Like fe1rx did in his BBK, I protected the rubber boots at the ball joints from direct radiated heat. This applies especially to the tie rods.

One other thing I learned is how to use the brakes properly. The key is to use the brakes very hard at the beginning of the braking zone. Dump as much energy as you can while speeds are higher and airflow is better to pull the heat away. Maintain a near constant pedal pressure and then trail off the brakes as you enter the corner. If you find yourself coming to the end of the braking zone and are pushing the pedal harder to get it slowed down in time you are adding extra heat at a time when airflow is the lowest. This really amps up the brake temperatures.

Last thing. I've noticed that I get significant longitudinal tapered pad wear. Bad enough that I regularly flip the pad set over in the calipers to combat it. Yes, I have to re-bed the pads, but to me it is worth it. Seeing fe1rx's BBK thread listing the caliper piston diameters shows that the AP caliper has a greater difference in diameters than the factory one. I'd be interested in knowing if the pads in the AP have better wear.

Anyone else run into this type of tapered pad wear?
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