EU Long Distance Selling

R99 · 10-05-2016, 01:41 PM

Hi all,

Hoping there maybe someone on here who has some knowledge to share?

This is the situation:

Bought 4 x brand new BMW alloys from an eBay seller. Item was listed as 'best offer', lots of messages back and forth and agreed £950 inc delivery and a set of genuine centre caps to go with them. Upon agreeing the price - seller stated that payment options were either bank transfer or PayPal, not a sale through eBay. I agreed to pay via PayPal and made the payment (via 'Goods & Services' option to retain protection)

Items arrive, I was out, so went that evening to collect them from the local courier depot. Sign the paperwork, get them home and unbox them. Two are perfect and two are badly damaged (no obvious signs of damage on the boxes). Upon closer inspection, I find that there are little horizontal splits in the boxes, which line up perfectly with the damage on the wheels. I also find paint inside the boxes that has come off the wheels due to impact damage. Cleary they had been damaged in transit.

I contacted the seller immediately via eBay messenger, documenting the damage and details, with pictures. Depot was closed at this point, so I contacted UK Mail the following morning and asked them to note on their systems that I was reporting the items were damaged. (UK Mail are the UK partner of the sellers chosen courier, which is Trans-O-Flex).

Same day I then get a message from the seller stating that it is unlikely that they will be able to help, as I have voided the carrier insurance by opening the boxes. Cue lots of very unhappy messages back and forth and the end result was that if I wanted a replacement pair straight away then I would have to return the two damaged ones to them, and they would then sent me two new wheels. I agree, reluctantly, as I want what I paid for, but I made it clear that they should refund me this cost once they settle things with the courier. The return postage cost me £86 with insurance.

Cue lots more waiting & lots more messages back and forth, and they eventually then tell me that Trans-O-Flex have rejected the insurance claim based on the fact that when I collected the wheels I signed a collection sheet on a clipboard that states (under the signature box) "items received in good condition". Unhappy about this (how are you meant to know they are in good condition until you open them?!) I contact UK Mail who tell me that as far as they are concerned, a claim can still be filed despite the signature, as the damage was reported straight away. The seller disagrees, and is stating that Trans-O-Flex have a policy where the items must be checked at the 'point of delivery' before signing. UK Mail have no knowledge of this phantom policy, and I have chased this up to CEO office level in an attempt to get clarity.

Anyway, eventually, the new wheels turn up and surprise surprise they are both bloody damaged (not as bad this time, but not in the advertised condition of brand new!).

So, I contact the seller again, they tell me I must wait for Trans-O-Flex to resolve the insurance claim (I don't think so, as the sale agreement is between myself and the seller, not their courier!).

I offered them two options.

1) collect all wheels (at their cost) and refund me the whole £950.
2) consider a partial refund of 50% of the purchase price (to include my £86 for previous return costs and to cover the cost of referring the two damaged wheels, and my time and effort

They then dismiss my partial refund offer as "ridiculous" and have stated they would be better getting back the wheels from me, repairing the two damaged ones, and selling them on as used.

In an attempt to mediate, I then asked them to suggest a figure they think would be reasonable. They have then ignored all messages since.

At this point, I involved PayPal. I once again proposed a partial refund of 50% (you have to start somewhere, and in truth I never expected to get that!). They respond to PayPal and state they will give 100 EUR as a partial refund, and they will also send the missing centre caps that they 'forgot' to deliver on both occasions!

I have told PayPal this is unacceptable, and they agree, but they cannot enforce partial refunds - only a full refund. They also have made me aware that I would be responsible for the return postage cost of all 4 wheels if I want a full refund.

My point is this:

100 EUR is an insult, and doesn't even begin to cover the cost of repainting two damaged wheels and covering my expenditure of £86 to return wheels that were damaged by the sellers courier.

I want to keep the wheels, as if I return them, I will be a further £90+ down on top of the £86 I have already lost - so around £180ish and nothing to show for it, as the wheels will be back with the seller who has no doubt cashed in on the insurance claim for the second delivery - so they will have scored twice!

Are there any laws or legislation I can look at that may cover me, as PayPal is obviously not a legal body, and they cant really help beyond 'advising' the seller to co-operate before resorting to a full refund (which is not in my interests)

Thanks!

dragerboy · 10-05-2016, 02:57 PM

Sounds like a right mess and feel your pain.

I would want the seller to pay for repair of the wheels, ie get a quote locally. If not would want full refund but would dispute return costs as why should you pay for return of damaged goods.

The courier nonsense about signing for item means item is acceptable would be laughed out of any court. These days couriers are on such tight timetables they can't stand there whilst you inspect the goods.

And surely whoever organised the courier they need to make the claim with regards damage in transit.

On a side note I found out today that 3 sales I did on eBay that I had to cancel because the buyers couldn't collect item as stated in listing are subject each to 20p fee that I lose, this also includes a fraudulent transaction from a hacked account. Imagine how many 20p's PayPal are keeping!!!

Thermobaric · 10-05-2016, 03:16 PM

Were the second set of wheels damaged in a similar way?

R99 · 10-05-2016, 03:53 PM

Yeh, damaged in the same way!

Despite better packaging on the second delivery.

It's a nightmare situation!

Thermobaric · 10-05-2016, 03:57 PM

And it was only obvious after you opened them? Sounds like the seller doesn't know how to pack wheels. Seller probably not playing ball as he knows the shipping company will just point to his insufficient packaging causing the damage.

Robin330i · 10-05-2016, 05:13 PM

If I was in this situation I would send them all back and get a refund, I personally couldn't be arsed with all the faffing about and stress of it all.

R99 · 10-05-2016, 06:01 PM

Sending them back for a full refund = approx £180 in combined return shipping costs (which won't be paid for by the seller)

So really that's not an option as I'll be £180 lighter with nothing to show for my ££

Rustymage · 10-06-2016, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R99

Sending them back for a full refund = approx £180 in combined return shipping costs (which won't be paid for by the seller)

So really that's not an option as I'll be £180 lighter with nothing to show for my ££

"Returning faulty goods

If you receive faulty goods and wish to return them, the Regulations are in addition to your other legal rights.

So, if your goods are faulty and don’t do what they're supposed to, or don’t match the description given, you have the same consumer rights under the Consumer Rights Act (which replaces the Sale of Goods Act from 1 October 2015) as you have when buying in store.

Any terms and conditions that say you must cover the cost of returning an item wouldn’t apply where the goods being returned are faulty."

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...g-faulty-goods

imy · 10-06-2016, 03:37 AM

Whilst I have no doubt youve got this covered, ensure you document and photograph EVERYTHING.

R99 · 10-06-2016, 04:58 AM

Sorry, I should confirm here that the wheels were bought from Germany.

So in this instance, I cant rely on UK law.

I'm at a loss here, and trying to find out if there is any EU protection in this instance?

UltimateDream · 10-06-2016, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R99

Sorry, I should confirm here that the wheels were bought from Germany.

So in this instance, I cant rely on UK law.

I'm at a loss here, and trying to find out if there is any EU protection in this instance?

As we are still in the EU, you would still be protected under the EU law:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...s/index_en.htm

RajB · 10-06-2016, 09:09 AM

As above you are still covered by EU lawn but it's a difficult one with being across in the mainland. Realistically a return will be about £50 a wheel average and so would look to get that covered and the postage you paid. So about €200 or a touch less if being difficult.

Otherwise like you say you are going to be down quite a bit if just returning them.

10-05-2016, 01:41 PM	#1
R99 Banned 1100 Rep 2,598 Posts Drives: 2016 330d F31 Touring Join Date: May 2013 Location: England, United Kingdom iTrader: (1)	EU Long Distance Selling - Anyone able to offer advice? Hi all, Hoping there maybe someone on here who has some knowledge to share? This is the situation: Bought 4 x brand new BMW alloys from an eBay seller. Item was listed as 'best offer', lots of messages back and forth and agreed £950 inc delivery and a set of genuine centre caps to go with them. Upon agreeing the price - seller stated that payment options were either bank transfer or PayPal, not a sale through eBay. I agreed to pay via PayPal and made the payment (via 'Goods & Services' option to retain protection) Items arrive, I was out, so went that evening to collect them from the local courier depot. Sign the paperwork, get them home and unbox them. Two are perfect and two are badly damaged (no obvious signs of damage on the boxes). Upon closer inspection, I find that there are little horizontal splits in the boxes, which line up perfectly with the damage on the wheels. I also find paint inside the boxes that has come off the wheels due to impact damage. Cleary they had been damaged in transit. I contacted the seller immediately via eBay messenger, documenting the damage and details, with pictures. Depot was closed at this point, so I contacted UK Mail the following morning and asked them to note on their systems that I was reporting the items were damaged. (UK Mail are the UK partner of the sellers chosen courier, which is Trans-O-Flex). Same day I then get a message from the seller stating that it is unlikely that they will be able to help, as I have voided the carrier insurance by opening the boxes. Cue lots of very unhappy messages back and forth and the end result was that if I wanted a replacement pair straight away then I would have to return the two damaged ones to them, and they would then sent me two new wheels. I agree, reluctantly, as I want what I paid for, but I made it clear that they should refund me this cost once they settle things with the courier. The return postage cost me £86 with insurance. Cue lots more waiting & lots more messages back and forth, and they eventually then tell me that Trans-O-Flex have rejected the insurance claim based on the fact that when I collected the wheels I signed a collection sheet on a clipboard that states (under the signature box) "items received in good condition". Unhappy about this (how are you meant to know they are in good condition until you open them?!) I contact UK Mail who tell me that as far as they are concerned, a claim can still be filed despite the signature, as the damage was reported straight away. The seller disagrees, and is stating that Trans-O-Flex have a policy where the items must be checked at the 'point of delivery' before signing. UK Mail have no knowledge of this phantom policy, and I have chased this up to CEO office level in an attempt to get clarity. Anyway, eventually, the new wheels turn up and surprise surprise they are both bloody damaged (not as bad this time, but not in the advertised condition of brand new!). So, I contact the seller again, they tell me I must wait for Trans-O-Flex to resolve the insurance claim (I don't think so, as the sale agreement is between myself and the seller, not their courier!). I offered them two options. 1) collect all wheels (at their cost) and refund me the whole £950. 2) consider a partial refund of 50% of the purchase price (to include my £86 for previous return costs and to cover the cost of referring the two damaged wheels, and my time and effort They then dismiss my partial refund offer as "ridiculous" and have stated they would be better getting back the wheels from me, repairing the two damaged ones, and selling them on as used. In an attempt to mediate, I then asked them to suggest a figure they think would be reasonable. They have then ignored all messages since. At this point, I involved PayPal. I once again proposed a partial refund of 50% (you have to start somewhere, and in truth I never expected to get that!). They respond to PayPal and state they will give 100 EUR as a partial refund, and they will also send the missing centre caps that they 'forgot' to deliver on both occasions! I have told PayPal this is unacceptable, and they agree, but they cannot enforce partial refunds - only a full refund. They also have made me aware that I would be responsible for the return postage cost of all 4 wheels if I want a full refund. My point is this: 100 EUR is an insult, and doesn't even begin to cover the cost of repainting two damaged wheels and covering my expenditure of £86 to return wheels that were damaged by the sellers courier. I want to keep the wheels, as if I return them, I will be a further £90+ down on top of the £86 I have already lost - so around £180ish and nothing to show for it, as the wheels will be back with the seller who has no doubt cashed in on the insurance claim for the second delivery - so they will have scored twice! Are there any laws or legislation I can look at that may cover me, as PayPal is obviously not a legal body, and they cant really help beyond 'advising' the seller to co-operate before resorting to a full refund (which is not in my interests) Thanks!
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10-05-2016, 02:57 PM	#2
dragerboy Captain 84 Rep 687 Posts Drives: BMW E90 330D Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Horsham, UK iTrader: (0)	Sounds like a right mess and feel your pain. I would want the seller to pay for repair of the wheels, ie get a quote locally. If not would want full refund but would dispute return costs as why should you pay for return of damaged goods. The courier nonsense about signing for item means item is acceptable would be laughed out of any court. These days couriers are on such tight timetables they can't stand there whilst you inspect the goods. And surely whoever organised the courier they need to make the claim with regards damage in transit. On a side note I found out today that 3 sales I did on eBay that I had to cancel because the buyers couldn't collect item as stated in listing are subject each to 20p fee that I lose, this also includes a fraudulent transaction from a hacked account. Imagine how many 20p's PayPal are keeping!!!
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10-05-2016, 03:16 PM	#3
Thermobaric Captain 65 Rep 670 Posts Drives: BMW E92 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bucks iTrader: (1)	Were the second set of wheels damaged in a similar way?
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10-05-2016, 03:53 PM	#4
R99 Banned 1100 Rep 2,598 Posts Drives: 2016 330d F31 Touring Join Date: May 2013 Location: England, United Kingdom iTrader: (1)	Yeh, damaged in the same way! Despite better packaging on the second delivery. It's a nightmare situation!
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10-05-2016, 03:57 PM	#5
Thermobaric Captain 65 Rep 670 Posts Drives: BMW E92 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bucks iTrader: (1)	And it was only obvious after you opened them? Sounds like the seller doesn't know how to pack wheels. Seller probably not playing ball as he knows the shipping company will just point to his insufficient packaging causing the damage.
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10-05-2016, 05:13 PM	#6
Robin330i Lieutenant 36 Rep 512 Posts Drives: E90 330i M Sport Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Cheshire iTrader: (2)	If I was in this situation I would send them all back and get a refund, I personally couldn't be arsed with all the faffing about and stress of it all.
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10-05-2016, 06:01 PM	#7
R99 Banned 1100 Rep 2,598 Posts Drives: 2016 330d F31 Touring Join Date: May 2013 Location: England, United Kingdom iTrader: (1)	Sending them back for a full refund = approx £180 in combined return shipping costs (which won't be paid for by the seller) So really that's not an option as I'll be £180 lighter with nothing to show for my ££
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10-06-2016, 03:37 AM	#9
imy Captain 84 Rep 972 Posts Drives: M140i Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: London iTrader: (1)	Whilst I have no doubt youve got this covered, ensure you document and photograph EVERYTHING.
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10-06-2016, 04:58 AM	#10
R99 Banned 1100 Rep 2,598 Posts Drives: 2016 330d F31 Touring Join Date: May 2013 Location: England, United Kingdom iTrader: (1)	Sorry, I should confirm here that the wheels were bought from Germany. So in this instance, I cant rely on UK law. I'm at a loss here, and trying to find out if there is any EU protection in this instance?
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10-06-2016, 09:09 AM	#12
RajB Brigadier General 448 Rep 3,312 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Midlands iTrader: (4)	As above you are still covered by EU lawn but it's a difficult one with being across in the mainland. Realistically a return will be about £50 a wheel average and so would look to get that covered and the postage you paid. So about €200 or a touch less if being difficult. Otherwise like you say you are going to be down quite a bit if just returning them. __________________ E92 335i / M3 Hybrid - The Build
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