[poiney]

Consider the hypothetical situation: Transmission technology has progressed several decades into the future, but all other aspects of the car are circa 2007 technology.

Youre going to buy a new 2007 car with conventional ICE and you have 3 options:

1) CVT (no clutch pedal, no shift lever)
2) Automatic manual transmission (AMT) (e.g, “DSG like” that has shift lever and can shift instantaneously with no pedal)
3) Conventional manual transmission (e.g., full manual operation, like what I have, but better quality)

Here are the assumptions. All transmissions are nominally “perfect”. Except for main differences listed above, the transmissions are identical in all other respects (e.g., reliability, cost, gearing, weight, etc.) and “ideal” (e.g., have no transmission losses, etc.).

Let's assume that for options 2 and 3, that the car has ~8 gears (i.e., take your pick, but be consistent). Notably, the CVT is geared over the same range as 2, 3, except that it is infinitely variable in between lowest and highest gear.

The rest of the car is the same in all other respects (e.g, same max HP, weight, cost, etc.)

Note, a skilled racecar driver test drives all three transmission configurations and experiences the best track time with #1 that worsens with #2, #3 respectively, which makes sense:

#1) Fastest theoretically, makes the best use of HP, no shift lag (keep in mind that the CVT is nominally “perfect” and “smart”
#2) 2nd best, since there is no shift delay, but theoretically slower than #1
#3) Slowest, since there is an additional shift delay as compared to #2.

Your choice is really a measure of how you value Performance (i.e., CVT) over Involvement (i.e., MT), since they are inversely correlated IMO.

[trifona]

Are you retarded?

[teknochild]

Originally Posted by trifona

Are you retarded?

thats what i wanted to say

[ElCapitan]

Even if MT is slowest, I would still pick it. I am not a race car driver, I want to have fun when I drive.

[Rawhyde]

Choice #3 for me. I simply enjoy the manual more even with all other things equal.

I think in your optimum scenario that the CVT would be the fastest in a drag race, but not so in a road race. I don't think you'll ever be able to nuance the throttle and/or engine braking in all out cornering in anything other than a manual or automated manual. The CVT is going to "go to a higher ratio" when the throttle is closed and therefore feel disconnected (no engine braking). Even with the automated manual, you are relying on some algorithm to control clutch engagement. There are situations when driving at or near the limit where the optimum algorithm for clutch engagement is the judgement of a good driver. An automated manual can be optimized for the track otherwise it wouldn't be so prevalent in many classes of racing, but I think it'll be a monumental challenge to implement one in a street car that is used for everything from track days to ferrying kids to school.

Here in the real world, all other things are not equal. Manuals historically have better long term reliability but your stipulation nullifies that and I answered accordingly. Hopefully, your predictions will become reality. I'd love to see an end to automatic transmissions dying early. It's cost me a lot of money in the past, and I'm sure others have been victimized as well.

[iatacs19]

I would get #2, DSG sounds good. Best of both worlds: convenience + control when you want it.

[y2b3k]

what is SMG considered...? it is theoretically a manual transmission w/ clutch and all, but it seems more like a AMT (e.g. DSG)... I would personally prefer option #2. Convenience + Fun, and on avg. faster than a straight MT. But an even more up-to-date version of the SMG would be nice b/c there is less drivetrain loss and probably offers shifts just as fast as the DSG's

[Nikki]

Manual, I wouldn't buy a BMW if I didn't enjoy driving.

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by y2b3k

what is SMG considered...? it is theoretically a manual transmission w/ clutch and all, but it seems more like a AMT (e.g. DSG)... I would personally prefer option #2. Convenience + Fun, and on avg. faster than a straight MT. But an even more up-to-date version of the SMG would be nice b/c there is less drivetrain loss and probably offers shifts just as fast as the DSG's

SMG and DSG are both manual gearboxes, but with an automated clutch, as is Ferrari's F1, Lamborghini's E-Gear, Maserati's Cambiocorsa, etc. The primary difference between DSG and SMG is that DSG has a dual clutch, meaning it can pre-select the next gear and thus offer faster, smoother shifts.

As to the OP's poll, it really doesn't make any sense. Belt and chain driven CVTs are pretty limited WRT the torque they can handle. No transmission can shift "instantaneously", and the argument about whether sequential manual / automated clutch transmissions are "better" is meaningless. SMG / DSG is better if you want to drive on a track because the shifts are faster and you don't take your hands of the wheel, but many people just prefer the interaction of a conventional manual. That's not going to change just because of the "future"...

[Nyulak]

How would you get the CVT to choose a "lower gear" when navigating a corner? Some CVT enabled vehicles offer gear selection to add some involvement to the driving. This is a nice compromise for holding a gear, but I imagine the track worthiness of a CVT wouldn't be up to par when compared with a person's ability to judge which gear is right, be it with a stick shift or paddle-actuated manual.

[assuck]

Consider this hypothetical question:

Which tastes better?


or



Alot of people say they taste the same but what do YOU think? Choose wisely.

[Nyulak]

All aluminum cans taste the same to me.

[assuck]

Originally Posted by Nyulak

All aluminum cans taste the same to me.

So, you're one of them...

[poiney]

Of course, the poll wouldn't make sense assuming were comparing today's technology, but we're not. It's HYPOTHETICAL (maybe not so hypothetical decades into the future?)

No need to distinguish variants of option #2, as it shifts instantaneously.

I'm surprised that #2 isn't a more popular choice, given that within this hypothetical situation, that there is NO penalty for perfect shifting except for a lack of exercising one's foot!

[poiney]

Nyulak,
I agree that the CVT needs to be "smart" for the race-car driver to win in it. Again, ridiculously hypothetical. But IF the car computer is better than the human, what do you do?

BTW, I didn't know that CVT had an option to fix the gear. A variable-knob CVT might be the best configuration, again, assuming that they can resolve the torque/transmission loss.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by poiney

No need to distinguish variants of option #2, as it shifts instantaneously.

But the transmission isn't just there for shifting - it also has to transfer power from engine to the wheels. I.e it "transmits" power, hence its name. A transmission with a torque converter will be less effective at this than one with a clutch. BMW's most recent auto closes the gap somewhat but its still not ideal. And BMW agrees wih this. That is why they are developing a dual clutch transmission which by all accounts will replace the automatic transmission in most of their cars by end of decade or so. This is just like what VW has already done for some of its models.

So, your pole is flawed in that you decided to overlook the above points and smear all non-clutch-pedal equipped cars into one bracket. If you really wanted to do that, then you should have avoided the terms "AMT" and "DSG-like". I don't want something that is DSG-like. I want real DSG.

[Mrbojangles]

I HATE CVT.. i chose MT, its fun, you get bored of driving AT..

[y2b3k]

wow, mt and auto/manual DSG are almost neck in neck! we need some more voters to make a better poll. Although i suppose many ppl will choose mt over amt b/c it's just more "manly"

but hey, if i can beat u on the autox and have a better overall 1/4 mile on the track, then i guess being "manly" can eat my dust, lol, j/k

We are all BMW enthusiasts, that's what matters at the end of the day

BTW, aspiring335, thanks for the definition and explanation b/w SMG and DSG vs. MT =D this is what i luv about this forum, most people are very friendly, helpful, and informative

[rjs]

Originally Posted by y2b3k

wow, mt and auto/manual DSG are almost neck in neck! we need some more voters to make a better poll. Although i suppose many ppl will choose mt over amt b/c it's just more "manly"

manuals do seem to be regarded differently in the US. i guess it's because most of your cars are autos so a manual is rare & regarded as sporty.

In the UK, most cars are manuals & almost everyone learns to drive in one, (an auto is uaually a c$2000 option) so there is no mystique.

i think the hybrid sounds good, you can shift (via stick or paddles) when you are in the mood, but then just leave it in auto when pottering about town, no more clutch-induced leg cramp after hours of slow driving!

[010101]

Originally Posted by trifona

Are you retarded?

Originally Posted by teknochild

thats what i wanted to say

Me too
CVT has got a long way to go before this question is relevant

we need a new poll for this guy

transportation mode of the future:
teleport (instant, but boring)
auto pilot rocketship (a little more engaging, but still not that exciting)
car (slow, but maybe the most fun)

[Hawkshaw]

Originally Posted by ElCapitan

Even if MT is slowest, I would still pick it. I am not a race car driver, I want to have fun when I drive.

+1

[ElCapitan]

They taste completely different. Pepsi FTW.

Originally Posted by assuck

Consider this hypothetical question:

Which tastes better?


or



Alot of people say they taste the same but what do YOU think? Choose wisely.