Camber setting for the track

[John_01]

I read some posts where people claim certain track tires are very sensitive to having the correct camber when used on the track. It implies that other tires are more tolerant of setups that don't have ideal camber setting. Is this true?

I have camber plates on my 135i, so the camber is not really a problem. I just want to understand the issue so I can get the best performance and life from the tires. I am planning to buy a set of Advan AD08-R because I believe they will be durable and perform well enough for my skill level.

[MMisencik157]

Every tire has an ideal camber setting for every vehicle depending on several factors including vehicle weight, suspension, tire size, wheel width, and a few others.

The "best" alignment for a street car is all about what is important to you as everything is a compromise. If you set your alignment for what is the absolute best on track you will wear the tires unevenly on the street and vice versa.

What alignment do you plan on using? Remember that toe is by far the biggest killer of tires... much more so than camber.

Some tires like the Bridgestone RE-11 and now RE-11A were designed for camber challenged cars (stock alignment). It uses a very rigid asymmetric casing and sidewalls that resists excessive deflection under load.

On the flip side the Hankook R-S3 has a very soft casing and sidewalls. That tire requires a ton of camber for optimal wear and performance on track (over -4 degrees on the front of a 135)

[granracing]

The "best" alignment for a street car is all about what is important to you as everything is a compromise. If you set your alignment for what is the absolute best on track you will wear the tires unevenly on the street and vice versa.

This.

You'll also find it to vary based upon which track you're at. Get it close without going overboard and hurting street wear, then focus on the driving aspect.

[John_01]

I will use slightly less camber on the street, but its still in the range of 2 ~ 3 degrees. I don't really care about tire wear on the street because I don't do very much street driving in the 135i.

It seems the answer to my question is just about sidewall stiffness. Tires with soft sidewalls probably need either 1) more air pressure, or 2) a bit more camber to get even wear on the track. I am assuming a dedicated track wheel alignment with camber plates set appropriately.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by John_01

I will use slightly less camber on the street, but its still in the range of 2 ~ 3 degrees. I don't really care about tire wear on the street because I don't do very much street driving in the 135i.

It seems the answer to my question is just about sidewall stiffness. Tires with soft sidewalls probably need either 1) more air pressure, or 2) a bit more camber to get even wear on the track. I am assuming a dedicated track wheel alignment with camber plates set appropriately.

Toe is where your wear mostly comes from

Run with 0 Toe up front for increased turn-in and lower wear

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Toe is where your wear mostly comes from

Run with 0 Toe up front for increased turn-in and lower wear

You dont get increased turn-in with 0 toe. You get that with toe out in front, but that will kill tires on a street driven car.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

You dont get increased turn-in with 0 toe. You get that with toe out in front, but that will kill tires on a street driven car.

From stock toe-in to 0 toe, yes you will indeed increase turn-in response enough to notice it.

Of course, you'll get more turn-in with toe out, but I don't recommend that with any street driven car.

[John_01]

Now I have another question: In general, do faster circuits need more static negative camber than slow technical circuits? Otherwise can we expect that high-grip circuits need more camber, or are there other factors that affect the setup?

[wantm135i]

bam all you need xdrive-

[Ginger_Extract]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

From stock toe-in to 0 toe, yes you will indeed increase turn-in response enough to notice it.

Of course, you'll get more turn-in with toe out, but I don't recommend that with any street driven car.

I disagree. On my Mazda, which was a dual-purpose, street/track car, I ran 1/8" toe out up front along with -2.5* camber with no issues or poor wear. It was surprisingly easy on tires for a 3000lb car that saw 18,000mi/year along with autoX/HPDE.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Ginger_Extract

I disagree. On my Mazda, which was a dual-purpose, street/track car, I ran 1/8" toe out up front along with -2.5* camber with no issues or poor wear. It was surprisingly easy on tires for a 3000lb car that saw 18,000mi/year along with autoX/HPDE.

Add 400 more pounds plus a driver and the game changes a lot.

Why I don't recommend it, is that it makes for a lot of tramlining. The car will want to dart left and right depending on how the road is condition wise.

[pixelblue]

I had 30k on my car with 1/16 toe-out and -2.5 to -3.0 camber and changed tires only once. never felt the jittery nervous steering response. it works perfectly fine with a little toe-out and turn-in is greatly improved. of course for high speed stability and dead straight tracking you want a little toe-in

[dcaron9999]

Originally Posted by pixelblue

I had 30k on my car with 1/16 toe-out and -2.5 to -3.0 camber and changed tires only once. never felt the jittery nervous steering response. it works perfectly fine with a little toe-out and turn-in is greatly improved. of course for high speed stability and dead straight tracking you want a little toe-in

Heading out to my indi shop tomorrow am, to install M3 front control arms, Ground Control "Street" camber plates, and an alignment done on my 2011 135i. Will ask the mechanic to set to agressive setting for the track, and a second more civil street setting. My goal is to be able to switch from one setting to the other myself, without affecting toe adjustments too much. For the track setting, how does -2.75* to -3.5* in the front, and -1.75* to -2.5* in the rear sound? Not sure what the optimal toe setting will be possible or adviseable in front and back though ...

[pixelblue]

Originally Posted by dcaron9999

Heading out to my indi shop tomorrow am, to install M3 front control arms, Ground Control "Street" camber plates, and an alignment done on my 2011 135i. Will ask the mechanic to set to agressive setting for the track, and a second more civil street setting. My goal is to be able to switch from one setting to the other myself, without affecting toe adjustments too much. For the track setting, how does -2.75* to -3.5* in the front, and -1.75* to -2.5* in the rear sound? Not sure what the optimal toe setting will be possible or adviseable in front and back though ...

1/16 toe-out for front and 1/8 toe-in in the back. I had the vorshlag adjustable plates and in the beginning I use to mess around between track and daily driving. after a while I just set them and forgot about it. I don't think you can get to -3.5 camber but -2.5 to -2.7 is a good compromise between track and daily driving and for the rear I think max is -2.2. anything between -1.7 to -2.0 would be good. keep in mind everything is a compromise so you fine tune depending on your driving style and what you prefer in handling characteristics

[dcaron9999]

Thanks pixelblue. Just printed this as a handy reference to debate with my indi.

[dcaron9999]

So I got the plates and the control arms installed. Turn in and steering control is is definitely sharper on the street. Can wait to take the car to the track tonight.

One caveat: Im not too impressed with noise over bumps at slow or medium speed on the street. It sounds like a used bushing sound/rattle or some play in the Camber plate, like something is loose. Not sure if this is normal with Ground Control Street Camber plates, which I bought specifically to have least amount of NVH (noise, vibration,harshness). I will check with my indi, even they did do a road test before handing the car over, they did not mention anything special.

[dcaron9999]

Finally settled on -3.2* camber in the front (maximum I could get with my setup) with slight toe out. Rear is -1.8* camber. Balance of car at the track on stock suspension and sticky RE-11 tires is to my liking now. I held up with many superior track cars. Now need to work on selecting proper brake pads that will hold up, and wont leave deposits on the rotor and produce pulsations when too hot.