N52 performance cams

[andrey_gta]

m50 manifold? Why there is no benefit - the OEM n52 single stage manifold is good enough for linear. m50 Inlets are probably the same size as n52

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by andrey_gta

m50 manifold? Why there is no benefit - the OEM n52 single stage manifold is good enough for linear. m50 Inlets are probably the same size as n52

Are you sure? The M50 manifold outflowed the E46 M54 manifold as well. We need flow numbers!

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Itbs are a nightmare to tune. Well, unless you have a tuner. I feel a solid 15-20whp with cams and a custom tune can be had, especially with a good clean up of the head.

Did VAC give a ETA for those cams? You could buy blanks and have Kelford, Cat, Crower, etc make custom grinds.

Oh yeah, sync'ing is a pita, btdt on motorcycles. No ETA, not entirely sure they're in any big hurry so I thought I'd throw some money at 'em and see what happens. Probably nothing...

[Taskmaster]

I don't know man....I can help you source some extra parts if needed. I'm really interested in cam more than anything.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I don't know man....I can help you source some extra parts if needed. I'm really interested in cam more than anything.

No worries, thanks for the offer. Trying to get them to consider it a whole engine project that'll cost more than just a cam. But the cam falls out as an orderable part for everybody else. And as a template for a milder version without all the up front costs.

Already have the Bimmerworld diff cooler, 2qt Accusump with EPC valve, and Braille B3121 with Macht Schnell frame inbound. Custom C&R radiator/oil cooler has to wait until they can send my car's radiator to them to make a drop-in (another orderable once it's done) and the N54 oil filter cover drop-in is waiting with AN fittings to drop-in for the oil cooler and Accusump connections. Should have the exhaust with the Coast Fabrication muffler done shortly as well and looking like a stock PE with polished dual tips. Challenge carbon fiber roof with sharkfin delete and a Challenge race carbon fiber trunk lid are in the queue as well. Will have to get a GPS antenna with built-in ground plane and figure out how to permanently install it for the datalogger. And then it gets weird...

[justpete]

Correction, new radiator is going out tomorrow to C&R to save time. And a full set of hoses is going out as well to have custom silicone hoses made, electric blue in color of course (wha?) since there's no way to adapt to AN fittings on the radiator and engine, unfortunately. Exhaust parts should be in, fitted, welded, and on the dyno in a few days time, maybe by the end of the week, we'll see. Should have some air scoops installed on the PI snorkel at the same time. What the heck, they're cheap, we'll see if it's worth it. Going to have them powdercoated dull flat silver so they won't stand out. So more dynos coming...

<BTTF>
It's a science experiment!
</BTTF>

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by justpete

Correction, new radiator is going out tomorrow to C&R to save time. And a full set of hoses is going out as well to have custom silicone hoses made, electric blue in color of course (wha?) since there's no way to adapt to AN fittings on the radiator and engine, unfortunately. Exhaust parts should be in, fitted, welded, and on the dyno in a few days time, maybe by the end of the week, we'll see. Should have some air scoops installed on the PI snorkel at the same time. What the heck, they're cheap, we'll see if it's worth it. Going to have them powdercoated dull flat silver so they won't stand out. So more dynos coming...

<BTTF>
It's a science experiment!
</BTTF>

Who doesn't love science?!

[TheSt|G]

I would seriously avoid using VAC if possible. I've seen nothing but total failure coming out of that shop for years(they happen to be local).

[chris82]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I would seriously avoid using VAC if possible. I've seen nothing but total failure coming out of that shop for years(they happen to be local).

and I would seriously avoid taking this advice.

What's your beef with VAC? you've posted before how you don't like them.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

I would seriously avoid using VAC if possible. I've seen nothing but total failure coming out of that shop for years(they happen to be local).

Would be very interested in hearing any details you'd be willing to share including any alternate recommendations, here or via pm. Not really wanting to spend this kind of money at this level of risk if there are better alternatives. Thanks.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by justpete

Would be very interested in hearing any details you'd be willing to share including any alternate recommendations, here or via pm. Not really wanting to spend this kind of money at this level of risk if there are better alternatives. Thanks.

On my brother's M3 they did their CSL CF intake and a tune. During the various stages of tuning the car kept bogging and such and needed to go back, and they would routinely forget to turn on the rev limiter without mentioning it. The only way he discovered this was during a intake demo when the revs shot well past 8k before he realized there was no limiter. When the tune was finally reasonably sorted, though never great, he discovered that the ITB runners on the intake were cracked from either improper initial install(as done by VAC in house) or poor craftsmanship. At this point he just called it and reverted to stock. Later we discovered via Evolve that the "custom VAC tune" was actually just an Active Autowerks tune that VAC was trying to modify for their own needs and claim was theirs, but clearly didn't comprehend. To be clear, AA is in no way at fault here.

My good friend brought his M5 there for the rod bearing rebuild work the S62 needs around 100k. For whatever reason, the specifics escape me at the moment, the car ended up there for a rather extended stay as they messed up that install as well. What did stick out in my mind is that when my friend went to pick up the car(and keep in mind he never eats/drinks in his car), there were candy wrappers, kids toys, and bits of food littering the interior, and a fairly large scratch in the back of the driver's seat in the leather. Apparently they decided it was ok to use his car for taking the kids to school. Their response? A rather sour "We didn't expect you to get here so soon today". His car also had numerous oil leaks after their "expert" work.

I don't don't hate them like UUC(horrific customer service and craftsmanship) or HPF(who threatened to sue me once), but I really have zero desire to take my car there. The quality of work and professionalism is terrible. The problem is that I don't really have any alternatives to mention aside from Dinan($$$$$). VAC has the position they do because they are one of the few who actually attempt the more involved engine building work and such in the BMW community. Sadly, they just aren't very good at it.

If I was completely set on having the best N52 out there and wanted to push it into the experimental category, I would talk to Steve Dinan. This isn't something I will personally ever do, but you seem set on pushing it to the max(which is awesome).

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

On my brother's M3 they did their CSL CF intake and a tune. During the various stages of tuning the car kept bogging and such and needed to go back, and they would routinely forget to turn on the rev limiter without mentioning it. The only way he discovered this was during a intake demo when the revs shot well past 8k before he realized there was no limiter. When the tune was finally reasonably sorted, though never great, he discovered that the ITB runners on the intake were cracked from either improper initial install(as done by VAC in house) or poor craftsmanship. At this point he just called it and reverted to stock. Later we discovered via Evolve that the "custom VAC tune" was actually just an Active Autowerks tune that VAC was trying to modify for their own needs and claim was theirs, but clearly didn't comprehend. To be clear, AA is in no way at fault here.

My good friend brought his M5 there for the rod bearing rebuild work the S62 needs around 100k. For whatever reason, the specifics escape me at the moment, the car ended up there for a rather extended stay as they messed up that install as well. What did stick out in my mind is that when my friend went to pick up the car(and keep in mind he never eats/drinks in his car), there were candy wrappers, kids toys, and bits of food littering the interior, and a fairly large scratch in the back of the driver's seat in the leather. Apparently they decided it was ok to use his car for taking the kids to school. Their response? A rather sour "We didn't expect you to get here so soon today". His car also had numerous oil leaks after their "expert" work.

I don't don't hate them like UUC(horrific customer service and craftsmanship) or HPF(who threatened to sue me once), but I really have zero desire to take my car there. The quality of work and professionalism is terrible. The problem is that I don't really have any alternatives to mention aside from Dinan($$$$$). VAC has the position they do because they are one of the few who actually attempt the more involved engine building work and such in the BMW community. Sadly, they just aren't very good at it.

If I was completely set on having the best N52 out there and wanted to push it into the experimental category, I would talk to Steve Dinan. This isn't something I will personally ever do, but you seem set on pushing it to the max(which is awesome).

Thank you, this is invaluable, honestly. I'd agree they're the only game in town other than Dinan but my fallback is the shops used by the shop doing the work on the car. The missing ingredient are the cams. Otherwise we'll have to blank off the Valvetronic, lock it to max lift, and rewire the car with a Motec ECU and custom wiring harness which alone pushes thirty grand and leaves many of the modules non-functional.

I'd hoped to approach this incrementally, leaving the car's interior as close to stock as possible as long as possible but I'm beginning to think it may not be possible. Other than wanting to get my money's worth out of the stereo (such as it is...), comfort access, etc. there's no compelling reason to have any of it in the car. But the expense isn't rational at all.

AA says they can custom tune with a custom cam so the DME can stay and this carries a risk as it's an unknown but they haven't let me down yet and their service has been way above my expectations. All the other work in progress is to enable some minor tweaking like a leaned out race tune, a bit more hp via free flowing exhaust, etc. but also to prep the chassis and engine systems for internal work on the engine or as a last ditch effort to swap in a different one, an M52/M50 hybrid, an S54, whatever but I'd prefer to leave the driveline alone so there's some limits to my madness at the moment.

I won't tolerate shabby work. At all. And many thanks for pointing out the details that kill a deal. Once is an accident, twice is completely unacceptable. This is one of the reasons I chose to pay far more than it would otherwise cost to use the shop I'm using. Most would consider it unreasonable but there aren't any local shops fielding long term winning SCCA race teams year after year either. I do know they supplied Motec with all the systems necessary for them to develop a Valvetronic driver to allow the use of their ECU with a Valvetronic engine in one of the racecars which is pretty cool in and of itself, and probably insanely expensive too. Race cars don't cost north of a quarter million a pop fer nuthin...

Interestingly, with regard to use of a customer's car for personal use, it happens, btdt. Not to that extreme though. As an example of this shop's honesty they informed me each time they were going to test the car on the road, where and when and for how long, including that it had to be driven across town with the reservoirs empty after install to have them properly repressurized and checked out by the mfg. And the car is always immaculate when I pick it up. I'll pay to have no corners cut, it just isn't worth the aggravation.

Thanks again. I keep meaning to pester Turner and Bimmerworld about cams but I think I know what the answer is likely to be. Then again, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Everybody needs a hobby, right?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

On my brother's M3 they did their CSL CF intake and a tune. During the various stages of tuning the car kept bogging and such and needed to go back, and they would routinely forget to turn on the rev limiter without mentioning it. The only way he discovered this was during a intake demo when the revs shot well past 8k before he realized there was no limiter. When the tune was finally reasonably sorted, though never great, he discovered that the ITB runners on the intake were cracked from either improper initial install(as done by VAC in house) or poor craftsmanship. At this point he just called it and reverted to stock. Later we discovered via Evolve that the "custom VAC tune" was actually just an Active Autowerks tune that VAC was trying to modify for their own needs and claim was theirs, but clearly didn't comprehend. To be clear, AA is in no way at fault here.

My good friend brought his M5 there for the rod bearing rebuild work the S62 needs around 100k. For whatever reason, the specifics escape me at the moment, the car ended up there for a rather extended stay as they messed up that install as well. What did stick out in my mind is that when my friend went to pick up the car(and keep in mind he never eats/drinks in his car), there were candy wrappers, kids toys, and bits of food littering the interior, and a fairly large scratch in the back of the driver's seat in the leather. Apparently they decided it was ok to use his car for taking the kids to school. Their response? A rather sour "We didn't expect you to get here so soon today". His car also had numerous oil leaks after their "expert" work.

I don't don't hate them like UUC(horrific customer service and craftsmanship) or HPF(who threatened to sue me once), but I really have zero desire to take my car there. The quality of work and professionalism is terrible. The problem is that I don't really have any alternatives to mention aside from Dinan($$$$$). VAC has the position they do because they are one of the few who actually attempt the more involved engine building work and such in the BMW community. Sadly, they just aren't very good at it.

If I was completely set on having the best N52 out there and wanted to push it into the experimental category, I would talk to Steve Dinan. This isn't something I will personally ever do, but you seem set on pushing it to the max(which is awesome).

Wow, good to know. Good thing he has his own shop and VAC just needs to make the parts.

I will say that Chris' VAC tuned 128i is powerful - VERY powerful, so hopefully things have changed since you last had dealings with them.

I heard Dinan did some work on the N52 for a few race series and had good sucess with them, but the person who told me (us) wasn't allowed to go into detail.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Who doesn't love science?!

LOL

Ya know what's missing - a flux capacitor. I wonder if that's SCCA legal...

[Taskmaster]

Full Valvetronic lock won't do much when the cams are already at max lift. I guess you could look to swaping out the cams/carriers with the N54 and having custom grind cams that way, but utilizing the valvetronic system seems like the best option for sure.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by justpete

LOL

Ya know what's missing - a flux capacitor. I wonder if that's SCCA legal...

Just don't hit 88mph!

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Wow, good to know. Good thing he has his own shop and VAC just needs to make the parts.

I will say that Chris' VAC tuned 128i is powerful - VERY powerful, so hopefully things have changed since you last had dealings with them.

Wouldn't trust VAC in house made parts.

As to the custom 128i tune, it may indeed make good numbers, but at what cost? Given the number of safety features they were just turning off on my brother's ECU, what's to prevent them from doing that here? This is part of why I hate dynos. Such a narrow slice of information about a much bigger picture.

[631twentyeighteye]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Wouldn't trust VAC in house made parts.

As to the custom 128i tune, it may indeed make good numbers, but at what cost? Given the number of safety features they were just turning off on my brother's ECU, what's to prevent them from doing that here? This is part of why I hate dynos. Such a narrow slice of information about a much bigger picture.

My AA tune definitely has a limiter. I told him to make sure he hit it for my pulls

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

My AA tune definitely has a limiter. I told him to make sure he hit it for my pulls

He's talking about the Vac modified AA tune. It's probably a dyno tune.

My car feels like a solid 23Xwhp for sure speaking of which, can't wait to get it on the dyno again.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Full Valvetronic lock won't do much when the cams are already at max lift. I guess you could look to swaping out the cams/carriers with the N54 and having custom grind cams that way, but utilizing the valvetronic system seems like the best option for sure.

Yeah, that's the idea. Locking at max lift is to get it out of the way so higher lift cams can be used, it just requires an entirely different ECU since the DME can't be made to work without Valvetronic functional, or at least it isn't worth the effort to do so apparently. The throttle body always get changed out to one with a mechanical linkage so the throttle can be connected with a cable. Would love to have that but the cost of the ECU is just too much.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

My AA tune definitely has a limiter. I told him to make sure he hit it for my pulls

Same here, only I managed to verify it on the track. Um, more than once. Dangit. Gotta start paying more attention to those shift lights on the DASH3...

[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

He's talking about the Vac modified AA tune. It's probably a dyno tune.

My car feels like a solid 23Xwhp for sure speaking of which, can't wait to get it on the dyno again.

Yeah, but if they're turning off the safe limits (my shop asked explicitly if this had been done by AA) then all bets are off. Even if they clayed the engine (very very doubtful) it doesn't mean it's safe since stuff stretches under abnormal loading. Would be very concerned if the tune was wound up with safeties off just cuz it worked that way once on the dyno. That'd worry me no end. Unless I knew it and accepted that there was a definite risk of dropping valves or worse case throwing a rod.