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09-10-2013, 04:26 PM | #23 | |
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Personally, vampire81... The LSD is the single best mod i've done to my vehicle. And that's simply because you use it every day.. Suspension mods you won't get the same benefits from on a daily basis unless you always drive around with your hair on fire. Getting on the gas out of a turn or any time your wheels start to spin, its an 100% difference. So much more control and much better power delivery. I can't say I've enjoyed my suspension mods as much as my LSD.
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09-10-2013, 04:44 PM | #24 | |||
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I didn't name anybody names, didn't violate any forum rules and hopefully wasn't disrespectful either. I'm simply expressing my disappointment with the opinions here. How's that a ban-able offense? As compared to calling people names for example? And btw. that post wasn't addressed to you, I was answering a direct question. Quote:
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How do you "use it every day" compared to your suspension? How often do you experience wheel spin on public roads (with good tires)? What does "100% difference" mean? What exactly is different? |
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09-10-2013, 05:10 PM | #25 |
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FWIW I am with you @int2str on this LSD debate. yes it's great to have it but whether it should be the first mod, I don't think so. will it help your lap times, barely. is it more fun and more predictable driving on the edge, yes! end of story
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09-10-2013, 05:27 PM | #26 |
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Both... but coilovers first. It will look better 100% of the time and drive better 100% of the time. It will improve the experience of owning the car in more ways than the LSD will. Please skip the cheaper options if driving the car takes precedence over looking at the car. Don't forget camber plates and maybe some M pieces up front.
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09-10-2013, 06:36 PM | #27 | |
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Or we can take all of the M3 components and throw them on the car for a total of $2.5k... Is that going to help more than an LSD on a daily basis? Probably not. Last point I would like to make is the fact that anyone interested in tracking their car occasionally during the course of a year should attend track events with a completely stock suspension. You need to learn the limits of your car on a stock suspension, so when you do in fact upgrade the suspension, your learning curve will be exponentially greater than if you attend your first event with a full suspension. An LSD will not hinder nor hurt your learning curve, rather it will be a tool to enhance your understanding of car dynamics, which is extremely hard to achieve with an open diff. OP, I am very proud with the advice I give and either way you will greatly improve the characteristics of your car. I just don't appreciate people who say my information is misguided or disappointing when I have spent hours on the track and driving these cars. Let us know what setup you choose! -Mike P.S. Got a good laugh out of the bold statement. Doesn't help credibility but got a good laugh. Last edited by HP Autosport; 09-10-2013 at 06:44 PM.. |
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09-10-2013, 06:50 PM | #28 |
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with all due respect I completely disagree with mike. the benefits of a LSD is realized only when driven on the edge or while drifting. for $2.5k I would tame the cars soft suspension, hard tires and lack of camber first. I think this can be achieved with $2.5k. go for dinan camber plates, swap out the RFT's for wider stickier tires and swap out the front control arms and the ARB. you will feel the difference way more than swapping in a LSD. LSD should be your last mod
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09-10-2013, 06:59 PM | #29 | |||||
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What advice?! I didn't give the OP any specific suspension advice! Because there's not enough information - that's my point. Do *you* think you can have an LSD installed for the OP at 2500? What part of the LSD do you think SIGNIFICANTLY changes the handling characteristics of the car on the road? In what way? Quote:
That would also give you the opportunity to see where exactly your handling falls short and address those specific issues. Quote:
And even (especially?) driving with an open diff would "enhance your understanding of car dynamics". Quote:
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09-10-2013, 07:38 PM | #30 | ||
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Like the OP said, he already planned on addressing the RFTs by replacing them so I believe this $2.5k is completely separate. I 100% agree that the front control arms made the biggest difference of the M3 suspension components. I am in no way saying getting a better suspension is stupid or not worth it. I am simply implying that a suspension kit, especially when you track the car, should not be compromised by a certain dollar amount. $2,500 for a good suspension setup is sort of hard to achieve and will be 'outgrown' rather quickly by someone attending track events 2-3 times a year. Comparing all the M3 bits to an LSD, I still believe the LSD made the bigger difference, even on the street. That is just an opinion and you can dissagree with it. However, you use an LSD for more applications than just driving on the edge, such as wet traction predictability, better traction during hard acceleration, better acceleration out of tight turns, and not to mention tons of fun around corners. Quote:
-Mike |
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09-10-2013, 07:41 PM | #31 | |
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IMO, its a waste of time trying to tune the handling while using the stock subframe bushes. Simply put, they are all-over-the-place. Its not only a suspension stiffness problem. In addition it causes a rear wheel passive steering problem that makes the steering response very confusing for the driver. Swapping the M3 subframe bushes made such a big difference that I now realise I would never have got a feeling for the cars true characteristics while using the stock subframe bushes. I would recommend it as the first mod, even in a car used as a daily driver. |
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09-10-2013, 08:08 PM | #32 | |
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But this is also assuming the suspension is in reasonable condition(safety). RWD cars should never be sold without an LSD IMO. I think that there were insufficient requirements presented for anyone to be flaming someone for providing accurate advice for their interpretation of the requirments. |
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09-10-2013, 09:48 PM | #33 | |
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Install M3 rear subframe bushings. 1) it is a suspension mod, which is your stated intent. 2) it improves ride quality. 3) it improves front end grip, which is surely what you mean when you say "have more grip when cornering". (Why would you want more rear grip on what is already an understeering pig?) Reassess (at the track, at an autoslalom, or on any decent on ramp) after the M3 rear subframe bushings. LSD as a first mod? This is just about the worst idea you could come up with and since you did come up with it, I guess we can blame you and not Mike. I am sure Mike believes what he says, but he hasn't done a very good job of explaining how an LSD is "the single best modification". And you do know he is in the business of selling you whatever you think you need, right? int2str may have stepped on a few toes, but he speaks from an informed AND impartial position. John_01 gets a nod too. Oh, and just to clarify - by "track" you do mean "race track" as in "road course" don't you? If you are actually intending to take your car to the "race track", M3 rear subframe bushings are "the one mod" you should do first. Nothing else comes close. It doesn't matter if you want to drive fast or to drive sideways, they fix a fundamental problem with the 1-series suspension. This advice is just about as old as this forum. That is to say, it is extremely well tested, and I dare say nobody who has done it and tracks their car will tell you that it didn't fundamentally improve their car's handling and balance. |
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09-10-2013, 09:49 PM | #34 |
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everyone forgets that OP has a tune, FMIC, dp's and stated he is getting new tires. a LSD would actually help him put the power down. Before my FMIC with similar mods ( i already had coilovers) i actually did have traction issues on the streets. I probably wasnt driving exactly the speed limit but the Lsd absolutely made a big difference.
People arguing against the LSD are acting like it is going on a stock car that will see no performance driving, which isnt the case. Should LSD be before Coilovers after power mods? that is the question and it is absolutely debatable based on peoples intentions with their cars. |
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09-10-2013, 10:17 PM | #35 |
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Wow Im surprised by this debate.
The first mod going on my car when its delivered is a Quaife lsd. Every performance car Ive owned (Hondas, Nissans, Evo) has benefitted immensely from a lsd whether fr,rr,awd. The fact that BMW charges as much as they do and don't include a lsd was almost a deal breaker for me (almost). |
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09-11-2013, 03:39 AM | #36 |
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the flood of information is appreciated and i'm yet to make up my mind ```
this is where i stand now: - i mentioned the LSD because it is highly advertised and all my previous sports cars had LSDs. - the spinning when acceleration is what makes me consider the LSD. my LS3 C6 with PS2 tires hooked better. or is from the LSD in the C6? - the car will be parked in the garage when roads are wet. - i'm not drifting my car. - the $2500 is for suspension parts mods only. - the RFTs will soon go. size will increase to 225/255 front/rear. - i'm afraid the coilovers will be overkill for me considering the added stiffness and the reduced ground clearance. or am i wrong? i know it will vastly improve handling. - on fast corners (public roads), it bounces if the road is not perfect. reminded me of my 2011 mustang. my 2003 S2000 was better in this department. - i always drive the car with the traction control button pressed 1 time. - one more thing i would like to improve is steering responsiveness. it takes more time to translate my inputs. drove a 2012 GTI and its steering response was excellent and even better than my S2000!!! - i'm not planning to turn my 135i into a time attack machine when i take it to a "race track" or "road course", just enjoy having a well balanced suspension, or in other words, better than stock handling. now speaking of my $2500, should i spend it or save for the LSD? LSD will cost me $5000 installed. thanks again for the valuable inputs and civilized discussion ``
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09-11-2013, 07:15 AM | #37 | |
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09-11-2013, 08:10 AM | #38 | |
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2) the bouncing you experience from road imperfections is a function of runflats 3) the turn-in, or lack thereof is due to limited negative camber. increase negative camber up front (and run wider tires or square setup) and your will feel sharper turn-in I've owned my 135 for less than a week and #2 and #3 were the first things I immediately noticed and were most obvious to me. Don't get me wrong, LSD is a great mod but based on the things you listed above, it's not going to help in those areas. LSD is most practical in slippery road conditions, and if you're feeling like a hooligan at the moment, putting power down from a dig, or powering out of a turn. But for everyday driving I don't see how the last 2 really come up that frequently. If the LSD came as standard or was factory option, I would get it just because the cost would be reasonable and it's "nice to have." But if I had to retrofit it on a daily driven car, not worth the cost IMHO. I have one in my Z but it sees more track time than street. |
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09-11-2013, 11:25 AM | #39 | |
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@3002 Tii gave you some useful information. It really does sound like you want both modifications. The LSD will help you with traction and be a great compliment to your engine mods. I have an LSD, love it, and swear by it. On the streets I hated the stock diff and how at WOT when braking throttle would pull to one side. If I brake traction now, I do so in a straight line. I would get the non-runflat tires first, see how it improves your car and decide where you want to go from there. If your budget is $2500 and you are not building a track specific car, you can get some less aggressive coilovers and as 3002 Tii mentioned, you can adjust the height for cosmetic and handling reasons and loose little road comfort. The rear bounce you describe is a combination of your runflat tires and soft rear subframe bushings. The tires are hard and the bushings are soft to compensate. It creates a really loose disconnected rear end. M3 bushings and non runflats will get rid of a lot of that. For improved steering response, you can add more camber and or m3 control arms. The non runflats may make your steering feel a little less sharp than your runflats but the grip will greatly be improved and it will be worth it. I dont think you are going to get any one right answer for your original question. I just think you should upgrade both along with the bushings and your tires and you will be very pleased. |
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09-11-2013, 11:26 AM | #40 | ||
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Once again, I appreciate the further input so I could be a little bit more helpful. I just heard suspension vs LSD and went one direction. Hope this helps a little. +1 on what Marco said above me. |
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09-11-2013, 07:05 PM | #41 | |
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09-11-2013, 07:14 PM | #42 |
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Last edited by HP Autosport; 09-12-2013 at 11:19 AM.. |
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09-12-2013, 01:06 AM | #43 | |
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i wouldn't install a strut tower brace. why would i put on M3 guide rods and upper links?
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09-12-2013, 01:13 AM | #44 | |
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non RFT will yield a better grip and road imperfection soaking, but it won't improve steering response. correct me if i'm wrong!
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