Stage 2 (RB/Vargas) Turbo Install Costs

[froop]

Hi,

My turbo seals must be leaking like crazy as I'm blowing smoke past cats and losing oil at the rate of over 1L/1000kms. I've decided if I'm going to spend the money on the install of turbos I may as well go for some stage 2's however my local shop has quoted an install price which I feel is a little high.

Basically I was quoted AUD$2500 for labour, parts (fluids, filter etc.) and dyno time to test.

I know that labour rates here in Australia are higher than those in in the US but not by that much. What should I be looking for in terms of number of hours for the install and what parts are required other than the standard turbo install kit, oil and oil filter?

Alex

[questionable]

a turbo install job isnt really an easy job with the motor in the car, its actually a fair amount quicker if you pull the motor out rather than seperating it from the subframe etc etc. most workshops should be able to do this, its only R&R theres no custom work involved with Vargas or RB turbos. but after doing some reading the advertised $2500 includes fluids etc etc that will all be marked up etc also dyno time is not cheap. turbos should be a 1/2 day job at most.

[edisapimp]

Personally, I would diagnose your compression first before you consider the turbos as the culprit. What is the condition of your oil? THe funny thing about a turbo car with a blown head gasket is that when it makes boost it also makes compression that would otherwise be missing on an NA car, so this can mask the otherwise obvious symptoms of a blown HG or ring landing. If there's oil passing through combustion, I'm assuming the smoke is blue?

[froop]

Originally Posted by froop

Hi,

My turbo seals must be leaking like crazy as I'm blowing smoke past cats and losing oil at the rate of over 1L/1000kms. I've decided if I'm going to spend the money on the install of turbos I may as well go for some stage 2's however my local shop has quoted an install price which I feel is a little high.

Basically I was quoted AUD$2500 for labour, parts (fluids, filter etc.) and dyno time to test.

I know that labour rates here in Australia are higher than those in in the US but not by that much. What should I be looking for in terms of number of hours for the install and what parts are required other than the standard turbo install kit, oil and oil filter?

Alex

How would I go about properly diagnosing the issue without pulling the car apart?

Someone else had a valve stem seal issue as well which could possibly be the cause but from what I have read from posts of people with similar issues it seems to be turbo seal related.

It doesn't really smoke at all whilst on boost. When I was catless it would smoke the most when coasting in gear (engine braking), some when idling for a while and then a bit when taking off again, though I suspect that that was due to oil being pulled through whilst decelerating or idling. Initially cats got rid of most of it but recently it's been smoking through the cats and I notice it again when I come to a stop.

But yeah, it's definitely a whiteish, greyish, slight blueish smoke.

[darkrom]

Call some local shops (good ones) or the dealer and ask for the price of a compression test and go from there.

Sounds like one way or another the car is coming apart to fix this issue.

[CGMike]

Another way to check is if there is oil in the charge pipe, its probably the turbo. If not, its probably the motor. A compression tester is pretty cheap and easy to use.

[froop]

Maybe I can try and DIY it. Had a look on google and it doesn't seem too hard lol.

[Pig Farmer]

Originally Posted by CGMike

Another way to check is if there is oil in the charge pipe, its probably the turbo. If not, its probably the motor. A compression tester is pretty cheap and easy to use.

+1... Not to mention that you would see a sizable amount of oil in the FMIC (which acts like a large catch can). Not a couple teaspoons, but a cup or more.

BTW, check/replace your PCV valve. A PCV valve stuck in the open position will allow oil to get sucked into the intake track when the engine is in a vacuum state such as when the car is decelorating or sitting at idle.

[froop]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

+1... Not to mention that you would see a sizable amount of oil in the FMIC (which acts like a large catch can). Not a couple teaspoons, but a cup or more.

BTW, check/replace your PCV valve. A PCV valve stuck in the open position will allow oil to get sucked into the intake track when the engine is in a vacuum state such as when the car is decelorating or sitting at idle.

Yup, already replaced the PCV valve with an RB one. Didn't seem to make much difference though unfortunately. Can't remember seeing any oil in the CP or throttle body when I replaced my HPFP or took off my BOV. I guess I wasn't really checking though.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by froop

Yup, already replaced the PCV valve with an RB one. Didn't seem to make much difference though unfortunately. Can't remember seeing any oil in the CP or throttle body when I replaced my HPFP or took off my BOV. I guess I wasn't really checking though.

When my turbos were smoking this badly, it turned out I had a bad valve cover gasket, as well as a leaky oil filter housing gasket, the two combined produced plumes of smoke out of my exhaust on decel. I did not have the RB pcv valve at the time.

[froop]

I spoke to my mechanic yesterday and based on my symptoms he thinks it's still the turbos. He stated that because the smoke is predominantly grey it's oil being burnt up in the exhaust whereas blue smoke is oil being burnt up during combustion in the cylinder.

Does this sound right at all?

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by froop

I spoke to my mechanic yesterday and based on my symptoms he thinks it's still the turbos. He stated that because the smoke is predominantly grey it's oil being burnt up in the exhaust whereas blue smoke is oil being burnt up during combustion in the cylinder.

Does this sound right at all?

I'm not informed enough to give feedback on the exact tone of the smoke, but the smell will give it away if it's coolant.

Your symptoms perfectly mirror oil slipping past the turbo seals. Under vacuum it smokes, under boost and load it's OK. If you had a compression issue you'd be smoking constantly. Turbo cars can mask things like small amounts of ring damage, but you'd really be burning through oil if it were a motor issue.

I'd be willing to bet it's the turbos. I'm in the same boat.

[froop]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I'm not informed enough to give feedback on the exact tone of the smoke, but the smell will give it away if it's coolant.

Your symptoms perfectly mirror oil slipping past the turbo seals. Under vacuum it smokes, under boost and load it's OK. If you had a compression issue you'd be smoking constantly. Turbo cars can mask things like small amounts of ring damage, but you'd really be burning through oil if it were a motor issue.

I'd be willing to bet it's the turbos. I'm in the same boat.

Thanks, I really hope it's just the turbos and not something other seal.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by froop

Thanks, I really hope it's just the turbos and not something other seal.

If it was slipping bast a damaged ringland, you'd be smoking all the time. If it were one of the main motor seals, you'd be smoking all the time. Your symptoms sound exactly like a failed turbo seal.

[froop]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

If it was slipping bast a damaged ringland, you'd be smoking all the time. If it were one of the main motor seals, you'd be smoking all the time. Your symptoms sound exactly like a failed turbo seal.

I just read/hear some conflicting information that's all which is why I'm concerned.

An article I read said that smoke whilst decelerating and whilst idle could be valve stem seals leaking. Also an intermittent problem as heat in the engine can make a difference by expanding the seals to create a better seal. To be honest though, I don't get much cold start smoke but it does start almost once I start driving, usually always on deceleration. It then comes and goes, whether cold or warm but I don't notice it much when it's hot hot, i.e. on circuit lapping day. The day after though it gets pretty bad.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love RBs, but the main reason for changing my turbos would be purely because of this oil consumption/smoking issue. If not, I'd be happy to keep these stockers pretty much forever. And if I'm going to be paying to replace the turbos, I may as well get stage 2s rather than replacement OE or stage 1s.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by froop

I just read/hear some conflicting information that's all which is why I'm concerned.

An article I read said that smoke whilst decelerating and whilst idle could be valve stem seals leaking. Also an intermittent problem as heat in the engine can make a difference by expanding the seals to create a better seal. To be honest though, I don't get much cold start smoke but it does start almost once I start driving, usually always on deceleration. It then comes and goes, whether cold or warm but I don't notice it much when it's hot hot, i.e. on circuit lapping day. The day after though it gets pretty bad.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love RBs, but the main reason for changing my turbos would be purely because of this oil consumption/smoking issue. If not, I'd be happy to keep these stockers pretty much forever. And if I'm going to be paying to replace the turbos, I may as well get stage 2s rather than replacement OE or stage 1s.

Good point, I hadn’t really considered an issue in the head. Could be the case, but you don’t see that very often. That would be very tough to pin down as well since it’s not a bottom end compression issue.

I suppose the “good” news there would be that an N54 head isn’t grotesquely expensive. I bet you could find a nice donor piece on a salvage car for a few hundred bucks honestly.

The only “oh no” situation I can think of would be oil slipping past a damaged ringland. If that were the case, you’d be smoking more or less non-stop. Turbo cars can still run on a damaged piston, but they won’t run well- certainly not with the type of tunes you and I run. If you smoked a piston, it would be more obvious that intermittent smoke under vacuum. That’s just my 2C.

Oh and hybrid twins will never be reliable. It’s nothing against Rob or Tony, they’re both outstanding. But the bottom line is you retain the stock frame and manifold. Too much heat, too much pressure for long-term reliability. Again, IMO.

[135Pats]

If it's the valve seals you could just have them reconditioned and replaced. So you wouldn't even need to replace your head. While it's open you could consider doing some porting etc, though not sure how valuable that's going to be on stock frames.

[Stohlen]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

When my turbos were smoking this badly, it turned out I had a bad valve cover gasket, as well as a leaky oil filter housing gasket, the two combined produced plumes of smoke out of my exhaust on decel. I did not have the RB pcv valve at the time.

How would this cause smoke out the exhaust? If your valve cover gasket is leaking, it would be leaking external to the engine, not into the exhaust system. I'm confused.

[froop]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Good point, I hadn’t really considered an issue in the head. Could be the case, but you don’t see that very often. That would be very tough to pin down as well since it’s not a bottom end compression issue.

I suppose the “good” news there would be that an N54 head isn’t grotesquely expensive. I bet you could find a nice donor piece on a salvage car for a few hundred bucks honestly.

The only “oh no” situation I can think of would be oil slipping past a damaged ringland. If that were the case, you’d be smoking more or less non-stop. Turbo cars can still run on a damaged piston, but they won’t run well- certainly not with the type of tunes you and I run. If you smoked a piston, it would be more obvious that intermittent smoke under vacuum. That’s just my 2C.

Oh and hybrid twins will never be reliable. It’s nothing against Rob or Tony, they’re both outstanding. But the bottom line is you retain the stock frame and manifold. Too much heat, too much pressure for long-term reliability. Again, IMO.

Originally Posted by 135Pats

If it's the valve seals you could just have them reconditioned and replaced. So you wouldn't even need to replace your head. While it's open you could consider doing some porting etc, though not sure how valuable that's going to be on stock frames.

Thanks for your input 135Pats, and also everyone elses. Really appreciated.

I guess I might just go ahead with the RBs and see how I go and hopefully it fixes it. The reason I thought it might have been valve stems was that there was a post a bit back with a guy who had bad valve stem seals. Even put up a video. If turbos don't fix the smoke I'll look at the valve stem seals next.

Unfortunately for me, it's stock frames or nothing at this stage as I have an RHD car. We don't really have the option of any ST kits due to the steering rack getting in the way of everything manifold, DP and turbo related.

Originally Posted by Stohlen

How would this cause smoke out the exhaust? If your valve cover gasket is leaking, it would be leaking external to the engine, not into the exhaust system. I'm confused.

Actually this confused me too. Even the oil filter housing gasket leak I can't see how it would cause any smoke.

[froop]

I found this.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=16

Originally Posted by E90Company

My buddy thought his car's turbos were blown for a long time. Started smoking at like 70k miles. At 99k he checked the (original) turbos, no oil found in them. These turbos made a very loud siren sound. Apon further inspection the turbos were made out to be 100% in working order even with the siren, and they found the stem seals to have crapped out. He would get smoke on deccel no matter what oil temp fully catless. When he put the cats back on their was no smoke.

Trying to find the actual thread with the video etc but not having any luck.