2009 135i Coupe or 2008 M3 Coupe

[adc]

Originally Posted by Balls

Why not just buy a E46 M3 then (to save money today)? It drives better, sounds better, looks better, and its size is perfect.

Disagree here - the stock E46 M3 is overdamped, it crashes over the slightest road imperfection, and I like the steering on the 135i better. As far as sound, I guess if you like high pitched metallic rasp sounds, then the M will deliver - the only good exhaust system I've heard is the Larini and it costs and arm and a leg.

IMO both E46 M3 and 135i would benefit from suspension upgrades, even though for vastly different reasons.

The E46 M3 makes a better track car out of the box, the 135i a better daily driver. You can more easily tighten the 135i up a few notches than you can relax the M3. And with the 135i, you can easily make crazy power to go with the crazy suspension upgrade.


I thought about it, but for a daily driver the E46 M3 is simply not a good choice, IMO. The E90 M3 is altogether different, more so with the EDC option.

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by VFX

But drive an X5?

you mean my wifes x5?

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by adc

Disagree here - the stock E46 M3 is overdamped, it crashes over the slightest road imperfection, and I like the steering on the 135i better. As far as sound, I guess if you like high pitched metallic rasp sounds, then the M will deliver - the only good exhaust system I've heard is the Larini and it costs and arm and a leg.

IMO both E46 M3 and 135i would benefit from suspension upgrades, even though for vastly different reasons.

The E46 M3 makes a better track car out of the box, the 135i a better daily driver. You can more easily tighten the 135i up a few notches than you can relax the M3. And with the 135i, you can easily make crazy power to go with the crazy suspension upgrade.


I thought about it, but for a daily driver the E46 M3 is simply not a good choice, IMO. The E90 M3 is altogether different, more so with the EDC option.

Guess it depends on what you want and like. I know many who drive E46 M3's on a daily basis, and I never hear them complain about its daily driver capabilities. But for sure the M3 can benefit from less restrictive headers (Euro version is $1700 and it gives back 11 hp and 17 lbs/ft) and street coilovers. The Larini catalytic converter/front silencers are a work of art, and at $2400 should be. Those will increase output even more but aren't completely necessary and the Euro header alone will remove the rasp. Ultimately I think a E46 M3 makes a better "practical" toy, can be modded to death, and to me is the definition of a sports coupe for now and possibly forever. It's also still quite capable of retrieving groceries and making road trips. Plus there are some real steals out there at the moment. $30 to 35K can get you a fine example, and that leaves plenty for a few tasty mods (saw many on the BMW CCA website classifieds today).

[mtla4]

Originally Posted by adc

Disagree here - the stock E46 M3 is overdamped, it crashes over the slightest road imperfection, and I like the steering on the 135i better. As far as sound, I guess if you like high pitched metallic rasp sounds, then the M will deliver - the only good exhaust system I've heard is the Larini and it costs and arm and a leg.

IMO both E46 M3 and 135i would benefit from suspension upgrades, even though for vastly different reasons.

The E46 M3 makes a better track car out of the box, the 135i a better daily driver. You can more easily tighten the 135i up a few notches than you can relax the M3. And with the 135i, you can easily make crazy power to go with the crazy suspension upgrade.


I thought about it, but for a daily driver the E46 M3 is simply not a good choice, IMO. The E90 M3 is altogether different, more so with the EDC option.

I dont know but I dont know anyone who buys an m3 to soften it. The 330ci ZHP was there for that so does the 335I etc.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Balls

Guess it depends on what you want and like. I know many who drive E46 M3's on a daily basis, and I never hear them complain about its daily driver capabilities.

Sure, but you live in Germany and I live in close proximity to Washington DC and roads can be very bad. Commute is short which doesn't help with the longevity of the M engine, nor does it have sufficient acceleration to be playful if you keep it under 4,000 RPM (as I said, short commute).

Sure you can make it work, but as you said it's better as a toy than a commuter. If I lived in Germany I'd make every efforts imaginable to get my hands on a CSL as a weekend car - and drive it on the Ring as much as I could. Here in the US...

Originally Posted by mtla4

I dont know but I dont know anyone who buys an m3 to soften it. The 330ci ZHP was there for that so does the 335I etc.

Many coilover systems for the E46 M actually ride better than stock, at least over small imperfections and expansion joints. But, they're expensive.

If you have to spend $2k (+ installation) on suspension, $1700 for Euor headers (+ installation), perhaps another $2,000 for an exhaust on top of the E46, then it's no longer the bargain it seems at first.

The ZHP was the best street suspension that BMW has created so far IMO - I've owned one for 4 years. Did the track thing reasonably well too (especially with extra camber and sways).

The 335i is a pig in comparison. The 135i is a little better, but only a little. Come to think of it, the E90 M3 reminds me a little of the ZHP in terms of road compromise (but has much less understeer).


A car does not have to ride very harsh, to crash into the smallest bumps and potholes in order to handle well - it's a common misconception. Having reasonably stiff springs, perfectly matched dampers and useful suspension travel is what I'm looking for - and unfortunately none of the BMW offerings under $45k has it, at the moment. Perhaps the Perf suspension for the 135i, who knows...

This is just me. If I lived in Germany I know what I'd own - here in the US again I know well what I want (which is not the same thing as what I can afford).

[Noize]

One of my best friends has an E46 M3. Its more of a track star than my 135i, but I would not have one.

I drove an E46 M3 and our 335i back to back and chose the E90 head and shoulders over the E46. Much better car day in and day out.

That said, I still would take an E90 M3 over anything else BMW offers. Just cannot afford one.

[MVF4Rrider]

The E46 M3, like my car, is geared rather tall. Dinan and others sell a 3.91 final drive gear (stock is 3.62) for $2400 and that alone makes the car accelerate faster than a new M3. The 135 and 335 cars are geared very short in comparison, which limit top end considerably (40 mph difference) and greatly benefits the acceleration to make one think the motor is more than really what it is.

Would have been nice if BMW didn't gear the M3 so tall (does it need to go nearly 200 mph?) and install such a restrictive exhaust system in the US versions. Reversing those two errors will transform the car and even make it more liveable. Shorter gearing (although still taller than N54 equipped models) for every day driving and the correct headers make the engine run cooler, more efficiently, and more economically.

[VFX]

Originally Posted by Balls

Why not just buy a E46 M3 then (to save money today)? It drives better, sounds better, looks better, and its size is perfect.

I actually think the 135 looks better than the E46 M3.

Better to drive? I guess so.

Sounds better? yes!

The OP seems to have made up his mind but, yes an E46 M3 would make sense.

.

[VFX]

Originally Posted by mega

you mean my wifes x5?

It states "Drives: 135i, x5" on your profile.

I apologise that I assumed it meant you drive a 135i & an X5.

.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Balls

The E46 M3, like my car, is geared rather tall. Dinan and others sell a 3.91 final drive gear (stock is 3.62) for $2400 and that alone makes the car accelerate faster than a new M3. The 135 and 335 cars are geared very short in comparison, which limit top end considerably (40 mph difference) and greatly benefits the acceleration to make one think the motor is more than really what it is.

Would have been nice if BMW didn't gear the M3 so tall (does it need to go nearly 200 mph?) and install such a restrictive exhaust system in the US versions. Reversing those two errors will transform the car and even make it more liveable. Shorter gearing (although still taller than N54 equipped models) for every day driving and the correct headers make the engine run cooler, more efficiently, and more economically.

Unrestricted, the 335i will top well over 160 mph. I ran it to the speed limiter (in Germany, during ED) and it had plenty revs to go in 5th, even more in 6th. I think I've read the top theoretical speed (gearing limited) is around 180 mph - only 10% smaller than the E46 M3. (Could be wrong though).

Thing is, WHP on the 135/335/E46 M3 is really close, perhaps the M3 has 10 extra WHP. But way less torque. That's why all the acceleration numbers are so close.

With 3.91 gearing, will the E46 M3 hit 112-114 mph in the 1/4 mile? I seriously doubt it.

Shorter gearing will also worsen gas consumption, bringing it to E90 M3 levels.

(If you couldn't tell, I like the E90 M3 better. :smile: )

[MVF4Rrider]

You're mistaken. Whp on a S54 is 317. N54 is 282. Theoretical top speed based on gear rations, final drive, and rear tire circumference on a 135i is barely 160. M3 is 198. I know from lots of experience my 135i was close to tapping out at the speed limiter. Depending on winds some times it took much longer to reach the limiter than was comfortable. My Z4 M hits 168 in 5th!

The 3.91 gearing isn't so radical to measureably affect gas mileage much nor top speed (in fact, the shorter gearing makes it more user friendly to use top gear at slower inner city posted speeds, thus boosting mpg), but it does boost acceleration enough to make it faster by about .1 of a second than a new M3 0-60. Some actually prefer the 4.10 rear end for a significant boost to acceleration.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Balls

You're mistaken. Whp on a S54 is 317. N54 is 282. Theoretical top speed based on gear rations, final drive, and rear tire circumference on a 135i is barely 160. M3 is 198.

The 3.91 gearing isn't so radical to measureably affect gas mileage much nor top speed, but it does boost acceleration enough to make it faster by about .1 of a second than a new M3 0-60. Some actually prefer the 4.10 rear end for a significant boost to acceleration.

0-60 is meaningless. What will she do in the 1/4 mile, and at what trap speed? I bet there's no more than 1-2 mph in there...

Where did you see 317WHP on a stock E46 M3? I'm curious.

As far as top speed gearing limited on a 135/335, you are significantly off the mark. Using these numbers:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html

7000 RPM, 0.87 6th gear, 3.08 final drive and 25.1" tire diameter.

Came out to 195 mph. (If I remember well, the Alpina B3 is limited to some 180+ mph).

Edit: For the Z4M it comes to about 198.6 mph.


If you know the values for E46 M3, what will it come to?

[ben14142001]

Originally Posted by Balls

You're mistaken. Whp on a S54 is 317. N54 is 282. (in fact, the shorter gearing makes it more user friendly to use top gear at slower inner city posted speeds, thus boosting mpg), but it does boost acceleration enough to make it faster by about .1 of a second than a new M3 0-60. Some actually prefer the 4.10 rear end for a significant boost to acceleration.

Want to see where you got the number for the S54, that seems too high, plus I think torque numbers are equally important, especially for everyday driving and this is where the 135/335 really shine. As well, like said above, 0-60 times are relatively meaningless, but I don't think shorter gearing will shave off .7 seconds from 0-60 (E46 ran consistent 4.8's and E90's run 4.2's, indicating that your statement that shorter gearing can make an E46 .1 second faster seem ridiculous). I cannot believe a claim that shorter gearing will deliver better gas mileage. In all the cars I have owned and currently own, shorter gearing decreases gas mileage in all circumstances.

But, we need to get this back on topic, this is not a discussion of the E46 vs 135/E90 etc.

-Ben

[MVF4Rrider]

Z4 M comes to 198. I used a 24.7 tire outer diameter for the 135i in my calculations. All my math is at work, but it is fact the 135i is geared much shorter than the Z4 M/E 46 M3 and that's what makes up the gap in power to allow it (135i) to hang with the big boys...

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by ben14142001

Want to see where you got the number for the S54, that seems too high, plus I think torque numbers are equally important, especially for everyday driving and this is where the 135/335 really shine. As well, like said above, 0-60 times are relatively meaningless, but I don't think shorter gearing will shave off .7 seconds from 0-60 (E46 ran consistent 4.8's and E90's run 4.2's, indicating that your statement that shorter gearing can make an E46 .1 second faster seem ridiculous). I cannot believe a claim that shorter gearing will deliver better gas mileage. In all the cars I have owned and currently own, shorter gearing decreases gas mileage in all circumstances.

But, we need to get this back on topic, this is not a discussion of the E46 vs 135/E90 etc.

-Ben

Well, ignorance is bliss I guess... Gearing makes a significant difference. If shorter gearing makes you use a higher gear than you would normally given the situation then yes it can. If you drive around in top gear all the time anyway then no.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Balls

Z4 M comes to 198. I used a 24.7 tire outer diameter for the 135i in my calculations. All my math is at work, but it is fact the 135i is geared much shorter than the Z4 M/E 46 M3 and that's what makes up the gap in power to allow it (135i) to hang with the big boys...

Well, it comes to 191 mph for the 135i and 195 mph for the 335i, so you are totally incorrect. (If using 24.7" diameter. If using a 24.8" tire diameter for the 135i for the OEM Bridgestones - Tirerack lists it as the front diameter but they don't have rear diameter available - it actually comes to 192 mph. But let's say 191 mph, whatever).

The 135i and 335i hang with the "big boys" because they make big power and big torque, gearing is actually similar between all these cars.

The 335i has 1.5% shorter gearing in 6th gear end-to-end compared to the Z4M, and the 135i has 3.5% shorter gearing.

So let's find some other argument and move on. :wink:
(Unless you find a dyno graph of that stock E46 M3 making 317 WHP that is).

[ben14142001]

Originally Posted by Balls

Well, ignorance is bliss I guess... Gearing makes a significant difference. If shorter gearing makes you use a higher gear than you would normally given the situation then yes it can. If you drive around in top gear all the time anyway then no.

Gearing makes a difference, but not that large of a difference, you're talking about shaving almost 1 second from 0-60, which I cannot believe without evidence. And the latter depends on the driver, it will not "force" anyone to use a higher gear obviously. In almost all situations, unless you rev to a certain shift point in every single gear (say 2,500), you will be revving higher in every gear going into top gear (assuming that you will be cruising around the city in 6th...) thus using more gas. I've used custom gear sets on a few of my cars, and in every case the gas mileage goes down. But this is the last I will comment on the subject, the OP deserves to get opinions on his situation, not on our silly arguments.

-Ben

[Imola.ZHP]

Here's an option...

Don't lease, its like renting a car...

Buy a nice used e46 ///M3...

[Displacement]

In what dreamworld does an E46 M3 pull 198 mph stock? LOL

That's pretty

[future135i]

In the US does the top speed really matter? At Portland raceway, GT3's were doing 150mph with the Chicane removed. Maybe on an oval track it matters.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by adc

The 135i and 335i hang with the "big boys" because they make big power and big torque, gearing is actually similar between all these cars.

The 335i has 1.5% shorter gearing in 6th gear end-to-end compared to the Z4M, and the 135i has 3.5% shorter gearing.

Moving on, but upon departure here's the % differences in gearing between a 135i and Z4 M (sorry don't have for the M3, but I'm sure they're close).

1st: 135i 16.4% shorter
2nd: 135i 14.0% shorter
3rd: 15.3% shorter
4th: 13.3% shorter
5th: 10.4% shorter
6th: 8.3% shorter

Here's your graph:
http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=606

...and 7000 rpm's is a little ambitious for the N54 don't you think? Power falls off like a lead brick at 5600 (hp) and 5000 (torque). For theory it's fine. Real world it's not...

Cheers!

[TagMan]

This is one of my favorite threads... because I like both cars so much. As I posted earlier, the 135i is a special car, and while the M3 is indeed awesome and updated, it's not a completely new model here in the States, as is the 135i.

There are numerous members here with more than one BMW, so the real solution is to get BOTH cars... a 135i AND an M3.