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06-14-2012, 11:49 AM | #111 | |
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Having said that. This stuff CAN NOT BE LEARNED without being properly taught, and it can not be learned overnight. What you see racers doing, if you try and do it with about a dozen events under your belt, you will surely spin out or crash. They're not doing it to "anticipate" spin or catch spins. They're doing it to ADD GRIP to the end that's losing it. Imagine, let's say in a steady state, a skid pad maximum G achieved is 1.2 G on an entry level R-Comp. When you see a professional race car driver chop at the wheels, what he's essentially doing is, the tires have already reached the 1.2 G lateral load, and the ONLY way it can achieve more lateral acceleration, is by temporarily straightening out the tires...Basically alternating between say, 1.05 G and 1.4 G to average more than the 1.2 G steady state through the entire turn. A REALLY good driver will be able to use his or her car control skills to go FASTER, not merely to recover. HAVING SAID THAT. These aren't the type of skills that you'll learn on your own, and they're certainly not skills you should attempt without at least some basic fundamentals down already. If you can't look and think 2-3 turns ahead, execute a consistent, nearly perfect line lap after lap at ANY SPEED, balance and steer your vehicle with both throttle and brake at will, comfortably use all the track within less than 1/2 tire width to the edge consistently, able to pick out the ideal line without the aide of someone in the passenger seat, AND be able to drive at least 1-1.5 car width from the ideal line at 95% of the lap time achieved driving the ideal line, then trying to learn to add grip through the hands to either end of the car would be like trying learn to dunk as a 4'9" midget. To the OP: It is unfortunate, but I've found that most people have their big incident at the advanced intermediate level of driving, or anywhere from their 10th-15th day on track. This is usually the most dangerous part of any driver's development, they've gotten fast enough to keep up with guys who's got more skills, or cars that are faster, but not enough skills to gain any sort of "margin for error," and not enough experience to really know when you're in trouble. I got lucky, I had a massive spin at a track with a ton of run-off at my 5th event, where I was moved up to the "B" level for the first time. After that you certainly learn to respect your own limitations. To anyone starting out or progressing through the sport, I highly recommend sprinkling in some additional training outside of the track, like doing indoor karting or autocross or car control clinics. I especially like indoor karting because the dynamics on a kart is like a car but multiplied 1,000x fold. All the vehicle dynamics, weight transfer, understeer and oversteer happen at a much faster pace with much smaller input. If you can manage a kart well, you can manage a car much easier. The biggest "growth spurt" for me as a driver was that one year where I was literally going to the kart track once a week after work, and doing auto-crosses 2-3 times a year, and took a wet skid pad event and literally spent close to an hour on a wet, slippery skidpad trying to keep the car going around in a nice, perpetual slide. Lastly...If you learn only by crashing, then this is going to be a VERY expensive sport. You learn in this sport by having the right fundamentals and having your head screwed on straight. You only learn by crashing when you get to the professional ranks. Not saying none of us should ever crash...But I prefer to crash when it's someone else's car.
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06-14-2012, 01:42 PM | #112 | |
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One more thought, I don't agree with you saying you are adding grip to either end of the car. I know what you meant, but it is misleading to say you are ever -adding- grip. There is no such thing. Your car has a set amount of grip, manipulating where the weight of the car is moves this grip around but does not add grip. I know this is what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify for anyone crazy enough to read all of this lol.
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06-14-2012, 04:03 PM | #113 | |
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06-14-2012, 05:08 PM | #114 |
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We're about to take this thread off topic but...
I'll have to find telemetry data to support my claim, but if I'm correct, you'll see speed and lateral G ramp up fairly smoothly, but once it gets to the limit of the tire's grip, you'll find a really good data acquisition graph to show "vibrations" or what I called jaggedness soon after turn-in, or after the suspension sets. I recall someone relaying a story about Ayrton Senna, during the "turbocharged" 4 cylinder era, his engineers were looking at his throttle telemetry and was puzzled to find that through certain turns it looked like he was modulating the throttle very rapidly, and when the engineers asked him about it, he said that if he had gotten off or stayed off throttle, then the turbo would take a while to spool up on the exit and he would lose precious time exiting the turn. So in order to keep the turbo spooled up, he "jabs" the throttle repeatedly to ease the acceleration load while keeping the revs and exhaust pressure up to keep the turbo loaded. Seemed counter-intuitive at the time, until I took a ride with a friend that was driving in the Speed World Challenge at the time. I noticed that at the exit of slow speed turns, he would "see-saw" at the steering wheel. I was a bit puzzled, since throughout my entire career we were told "smooth is fast," and here he is, the prior year's SWC rookie of the year, at one time my instructor, who repeated that mantra to me before, doing exactly the opposite. So I asked him about it once we pitted the car, and he said, basically, at the limit of the tire's available grip, you can temporarily increase the amount of lateral grip available to you by straightening out the wheel a little bit and then return it back to the previous "set" position, and if you do this rapidly in very small increments, you can continue to keep the suspension "set" without unloading the weight of the car, but decrease the lateral load on the tire enough to keep it from "losing grip" by going PAST the optimum slip angle of the tires. So perhaps the way I explained it in the previous post does not describe the process in the correct manner, but the basic concept is the same. You can prevent either end of the car from losing grip, or going into "understeer" or "oversteer," by sort of "chopping" at the wheels a little bit at a time. But you must do this just right before the tire transitions from static to kinetic grip, otherwise the benefit of it to "going fast" is all but eliminated once you're in kinetic friction (because the act of straightening out the tires will only bring it back from kinetic friction coefficient to static, rather than move that boundary to a higher speed threshold). But, regardless, in order to execute said maneuver, you must be able to FEEL the car right before either end of the tire looses grip, and do the see-sawing of the wheel before the car pushes or starts a spin. And that ability comes from having done a tone of wet skidpad or karting IMO, since both will give you more opportunity to explore that boundary and find ways to expand it without wadding up your car. If you can feel the level of grip on the contact patch through your hands (for the front wheels) and your @ss (for the rear wheels), and you can accurately predict when either end is going to lose grip, then you can safely try and see if you can retain more speed from turn-in to exit by carrying more speed into the turn and using your hands to "add grip*." *Using your hands to add grip is still the most accurate and easiest way to visualize what I'm talking about, even though it technically and logically does not make sense.
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06-14-2012, 05:30 PM | #115 | |
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So learning to do that is my big goal. I'm mostly a tremendous pussy driving my DD on track and will never go even 9/10 in high-risk corners, but I think I can learn this approach with enough practice. I'm not really expecting to learn it in one day or even one summer, but it's what I'm working towards. |
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06-14-2012, 11:15 PM | #116 |
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I'd like to see you do that mid corner.
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06-14-2012, 11:33 PM | #117 | |
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You are correlating the maximum amount of grip with the minimum amount of steering. When you reach the limit of grip the best thing to do, assuming the front of the car is washing out first (that is HUGELY important), is to reduce the steering angle. You will keep the same arc and scrub off less speed. If you are driving competitively it also saves wear on the fronts and makes the car more adjustable to other cars. The best way to think of it is like this. When driving a perfectly balanced rwd car, lets say an S2000, around constant radius sweepers ie: Turn 2 at WSIR, the car should be in a perfect 4 wheel slide. The only steering necessary is slight countersteer when the rear starts giving up quicker than the front. When you say to reduce steering, you are doing the EXACT same thing, just for the opposite end of the car. Think of it as countersteer for understeer (if that makes sense LOL). However none of this adds grip, the goal is to remain at a constant grip throughout the corner because while it is not possible to add extra grip, it is possible to lose it. I'd love to see that telemetry if you have it. One final way to look at this and what the normal drivers reaction is and then I'll shut up. When your car loses grip at the front end, the car goes straight. What most people do is add more steering and more brakes. Think of this like bicep curls. When the car is understeering it is like your last rep. You are struggling to get it up but are failing half way. Adding more steering is like adding more weight. You are requesting more grip that wasn't there in the first place. If brakes are added in the extra steering angle eventually grabs and there you have snap oversteer.
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06-14-2012, 11:37 PM | #118 | |
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06-15-2012, 07:59 AM | #120 | |
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06-15-2012, 09:18 AM | #121 |
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sorry I didn't pay attention to the context of discussion
happy you got a giggle
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06-15-2012, 04:32 PM | #122 | |
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06-15-2012, 07:18 PM | #123 | |
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Lol, don't blame you, that's a lot of writing.
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06-15-2012, 07:37 PM | #124 | |
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If i did it again, I probably would have skipped the paint and just wrapped the entire car. Probably would not have cost too much more and given the car a level of protection. |
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06-18-2012, 11:33 AM | #125 | |
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Car's in my possession already, but now I'm waiting on the ER kit. No idea if it shipped, talked to them last week and it was supposed to ship Thurs or Friday so I'm waiting for their business hours to get an update.
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06-18-2012, 11:53 AM | #126 |
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If you did the wrap you'd save a ton of coin over a paint job. Using good quality vinyl is going to provided a great finish that will last for years. I'm debating paint or wrapping my car as well currently, I'm heavily leaning towards a color change wrap.
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06-18-2012, 12:08 PM | #127 |
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OP, wrapping over painting will save you some $$$, but keep in mind that if you get some nicks and tears in the vinyl, you will have to tore off the whole thing and redo it as patching wont look good.
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06-18-2012, 01:35 PM | #128 | |
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06-18-2012, 02:30 PM | #129 | |||
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NO FRAME DAMAGE FTW!
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07-04-2012, 08:16 PM | #130 |
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Some progress pictures, still need to replace the headlamp and support bracket, some under body panels, M3 fender liners, paint the hood, then do a whole body vinyl wrap.. but so far it's coming out pretty nice.. doing all the installation myself.
Crashed Hood With New Hood
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07-05-2012, 05:21 AM | #131 |
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Very nice yandy! Any idea of what color wrap you're going to do?
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07-05-2012, 09:03 AM | #132 |
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