Automaker blunders in the last 5 years

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Yes. Small drivers cars are a nearly lost art. The new M2 is not small by any standard other than comparing it to even fatter pigs.

I don't disagree with you that the increasing size and weight of vehicles is a trend that I'm not fond of. My point, however, is that I don't think it's fair call this a BMW blunder when it's actually an automotive industry blunder. BMW is no more guilty of it than every other mainstream manufacturer.

And I'm not even 100% sure it's a blunder, depending on how we're defining "blunder". If we're saying that a blunder is what makes the enthusiast community unhappy, then yes, it's a blunder for sure. But if we're defining it as what makes the auto-buying public at large unhappy, then no, I don't think it is.

Almost all people, so far as I can tell, don't particularly care how big or heavy their car is – it certainly doesn't seem to be dissuading them from buying. In my experience people are chiefly concerned with a quiet cabin, a smooth ride, enough pickup to comfortably merge onto the highway, and vehicle safety. None of those things come without an increase in weight. The size has become, to at least to some extent, an arms race of sorts. A lot of people I speak to say they want a bigger car because, since all the other cars are huge, they feel safer in them. So when Vehicle A gets bigger, Vehicle B has to get bigger to compete with Vehicle A. Rinse, repeat. It doesn't make sense to me, but here we are.

Of course, there's also the issue of how much the auto industry is pushing these size/weight increases themselves. Bigger cars mean bigger profits, so they certainly have some motivation as well. Like most things, there's not one answer but rather a combination of factors.

So ultimately, is it a blunder to sell what the majority of people seem to want? Outside of the enthusiast segment, it's questionable. And even then, one of the first complaints you're going to hear out of an "enthusiast" car reviewer is about cabin noise and ride quality. Quiet and smooth come with a weight cost. Our unending love for 0-60 times also is partly to blame – battery-assisted cars launch quicker, and batteries are heavy. Maybe we're doing it to ourselves?

[freakystyly]

Maybe something for another thread, but what "modern" car models have reverted to a smaller size over the previous generation? Miata is the only one that comes to mind.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Virtually nobody "despises" the stying & it is technically a better car than the previous version in every metric

While cool, the F87 looks very dated already.

Just built one on the website. I can live with the styling in black, but jeeze, the price for a manual RWD with carbon fiber trim at $71,800 and it is built in Mexico?

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just built one on the website. I can live with the styling in black, but jeeze, the price for a manual RWD with carbon fiber trim at $71,800 and it is built in Mexico?

What does being built in Mexico have to do with anything?

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

I don't disagree with you that the increasing size and weight of vehicles is a trend that I'm not fond of. My point, however, is that I don't think it's fair call this a BMW blunder when it's actually an automotive industry blunder. BMW is no more guilty of it than every other mainstream manufacturer.

And I'm not even 100% sure it's a blunder, depending on how we're defining "blunder". If we're saying that a blunder is what makes the enthusiast community unhappy, then yes, it's a blunder for sure. But if we're defining it as what makes the auto-buying public at large unhappy, then no, I don't think it is.

Almost all people, so far as I can tell, don't particularly care how big or heavy their car is – it certainly doesn't seem to be dissuading them from buying. In my experience people are chiefly concerned with a quiet cabin, a smooth ride, enough pickup to comfortably merge onto the highway, and vehicle safety. None of those things come without an increase in weight. The size has become, to at least to some extent, an arms race of sorts. A lot of people I speak to say they want a bigger car because, since all the other cars are huge, they feel safer in them. So when Vehicle A gets bigger, Vehicle B has to get bigger to compete with Vehicle A. Rinse, repeat. It doesn't make sense to me, but here we are.

Of course, there's also the issue of how much the auto industry is pushing these size/weight increases themselves. Bigger cars mean bigger profits, so they certainly have some motivation as well. Like most things, there's not one answer but rather a combination of factors.

So ultimately, is it a blunder to sell what the majority of people seem to want? Outside of the enthusiast segment, it's questionable. And even then, one of the first complaints you're going to hear out of an "enthusiast" car reviewer is about cabin noise and ride quality. Quiet and smooth come with a weight cost. Our unending love for 0-60 times also is partly to blame – battery-assisted cars launch quicker, and batteries are heavy. Maybe we're doing it to ourselves?

Title of the thread is automaker blunders in last 5y...

Dunno what else to say

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Title of the thread is automaker blunders in last 5y...

Dunno what else to say

Your post that I originally replied to was specifically referencing the M2, not the entire industry, thus my point. If I misunderstood your intent, I apologize.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Your post that I originally replied to was specifically referencing the M2, not the entire industry, thus my point. If I misunderstood your intent, I apologize.

Hm. Didn't realize specific examples weren't allowed.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Hm. Didn't realize specific examples weren't allowed.

Are you being purposefully obtuse? You specifically referenced the M2, which seemed to infer to me that you were suggesting that the issue of increasing car size and weight was a BMW-specific blunder, rather than an industry-wide one.

Again, if I misunderstood you, my apologies. But I'm dropping it either way, because it seems pointless to continue this line of discussion.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

What does being built in Mexico have to do with anything?

Price. Lower manufacturing costs should translate into a lower MSRP. If I'm going to pay north of $70K for a BMW, I think it should be built in Germany, especially if it is an M-model.

[25 V8 IS]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

That car is just a ZF 8 speed auto from greatest, IMO.

While I agree to a point, the transmission is really not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Don't get me wrong. It's not great, but it's not terrible too.

[pz619]

I realize OP was just expressing his opinion, but I'm not sure about the G87 being worse than the F87.

I love the F87, still own one. I wouldn't say the G87 is miles ahead of the F87 but definitely has incremental improvements, which is what one would expect. The improvements weren't worth upgrading (at least to me) and I didn't really like the rear styling. I think I'm in the minority but I actually really like the front of the car. Interior is an improvement and while I like buttons, I'm not really against a screen either. My daily drive is basically a fast screen with wheels.

If I were to add something to the list, I would add Jaguar. Basically the whole brand management has been a train wreck with a plane crash to add.

[25 V8 IS]

Originally Posted by pz619

I realize OP was just expressing his opinion, but I'm not sure about the G87 being worse than the F87.

I love the F87, still own one. I wouldn't say the G87 is miles ahead of the F87 but definitely has incremental improvements, which is what one would expect. The improvements weren't worth upgrading (at least to me) and I didn't really like the rear styling. I think I'm in the minority but I actually really like the front of the car. Interior is an improvement and while I like buttons, I'm not really against a screen either. My daily drive is basically a fast screen with wheels.

If I were to add something to the list, I would add Jaguar. Basically the whole brand management has been a train wreck with a plane crash to add.

I loved my F87C. LOVED it. But since it was a daily driver, that static suspension just ate me alive. Also, keeping the wheels clean was the worst thing in the world...God they captured the brake dust.

In the end, the IS500 is just so much more comfortable and the wheels don't get dirty to boot. Considering the F87C was a track car, and I never tracked it, there was no use in keeping it.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Are you being purposefully obtuse? You specifically referenced the M2, which seemed to infer to me that you were suggesting that the issue of increasing car size and weight was a BMW-specific blunder, rather than an industry-wide one.

Again, if I misunderstood you, my apologies. But I'm dropping it either way, because it seems pointless to continue this line of discussion.

We agree.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Price. Lower manufacturing costs should translate into a lower MSRP. If I'm going to pay north of $70K for a BMW, I think it should be built in Germany, especially if it is an M-model.

Should yes. But maybe it allows avoidance of cost creep? It happening anyway but the fact that the M cars haven't all crept past 100k says something to me.

Originally Posted by 25 V8 IS

While I agree to a point, the transmission is really not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Don't get me wrong. It's not great, but it's not terrible too.

It's an auto. A good one though. PS saw another IS out the other day and despite its auto trans it's really special IMO. I'd actually be interested in a "tech delete" manual IS500 like the old ISF. I love the LC500 too though my wife doesn't share this particular view.

[Ambrozie]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

We agree.



Should yes. But maybe it allows avoidance of cost creep? It happening anyway but the fact that the M cars haven't all crept past 100k says something to me.



It's an auto. A good one though. PS saw another IS out the other day and despite its auto trans it's really special IMO. I'd actually be interested in a "tech delete" manual IS500 like the old ISF. I love the LC500 too though my wife doesn't share this particular view.

The door cards on the LC500 are the greatest thing I have ever seen on a car.

That’s comparing it to iconic or phenomenal designs, like the f06 Gran Coupe sweeping interior, Ferrari exterior design in the 80’s, or certain classics going back over 50 years.

Pure ecstasy of a design.

[dcstep]

M2???

Has anyone here seen a Tesla truck? It's the definition of "blunder."

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by dcstep

M2???

Has anyone here seen a Tesla truck? It's the definition of "blunder."

"Blunder" is being very, very generous. That thing is, hands-down, the ugliest automobile ever created, along with perhaps the stupidest. It aspires to be a mere "blunder".

The only guy who should love it is whoever designed the Aztek – he's finally off the hook.

[Alfisti]

I've no issue with ugly, that's each to his own, but it totally fails in every way as a vehicle, it does.... nothing.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

...

The only guy who should love it is whoever designed the Aztek – he's finally off the hook.

LOL good one.

I think that the average participant on this forum is too young to remember the Aztek TV commercial with a "yuppie' couple using as their camper bed. If you look at it as a mobile bed, it's not too bad. Most people thought it was supposed to be a car.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I've no issue with ugly, that's each to his own, but it totally fails in every way as a vehicle, it does.... nothing.

I'm no fan of the cybertruck, but can you elaborate how it does "nothing"?

I mean I've seen them driving around so they can clearly accomplish the main goal of a vehicle which is to get from point a to b. I have seen them with shit in the bed so they can do that. I have seen them towing stuff so they can do that.

Now they probably can't tow or haul anything very far which is the main issue with electric trucks, especially if you NEED a truck... but it can certainly do things. I see tons of fancy shiny trucks that clearly the owner has never towed or hauled anything in driving around town all the time.

[Phillies8008]

So 95% of the time when I see a CyberTruck it's been wrapped, but the other day I saw one that wasn't and it looked like shit, more so than usual. The panels were very clearly stained and looked just horrible. Why anyone would buy that POS is just beyond me. Well, other than the Cult of Elon, but that's beyond me too.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

So 95% of the time when I see a CyberTruck it's been wrapped, but the other day I saw one that wasn't and it looked like shit, more so than usual. The panels were very clearly stained and looked just horrible. Why anyone would buy that POS is just beyond me. Well, other than the Cult of Elon, but that's beyond me too.

Tesla has been parking hundreds of Teslas at my office parking lot for about 1 year now because they apparently aren't selling. There are rows of Cyber trucks that have been sitting 6+ months. The trucks look like they've been exhumed from the bottom of the ocean. The panels are stained heavily, have rust pot marks, and feel like sand paper.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Tesla has been parking hundreds of Teslas at my office parking lot for about 1 year now because they apparently aren't selling. There are rows of Cyber trucks that have been sitting 6+ months. The trucks look like they've been exhumed from the bottom of the ocean. The panels are stained heavily, have rust pot marks, and feel like sand paper.

That's crazy – you'd think they'd do something to try and cover them. Who in the world would buy them at this point with the panels in that condition? Maybe they plan to wrap them, if they can ever manage to sell them?

Of course, if Elon hadn't have insisted on such a stupid material... but I digress.