1er coupe diesel for U.S .???

[bum944]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

For diesel fans, there's preliminary news of the 123d today. Its a 2 liter twin turbo diesel with 201hp, 0-100km/hr in 7.1 seconds, and 54.3mpg. Looks like efficient dynamics to me. I think this is the first diesel engine with start/stop technology too.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/06/26...diesel-543mpg/

Interesting news for the rest of the world, but I doubt we'll see that in the U. S. near term. Kinda surprising to see 2 turbos on a four cylinder engine.

[02cruzer]

It's not actually a twin turbo, that would imply that the turbos are the same size. But actually a bi-turbo like the 135 and the 335 where there is a lower RPM one and a high RPM one.

If it comes down to cost and the diesel is available over here, I'd have to take the 123d over the 135i. If cost isn't a factor, then the 135i will be in my driveway.

[123d]

Since we have no idea when/if the diesel is coming to NA... my biggest fear is that I won't be able to wait and I'll end up getting a 135i :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[aesthetect]

^^^^^amen all the way. the temptation is just too much.

[mikeo]

Originally Posted by 02cruzer

It's not actually a twin turbo, that would imply that the turbos are the same size. But actually a bi-turbo like the 135 and the 335 where there is a lower RPM one and a high RPM one. ...

Actually, you have that backwards. The N54B30 engine in the 335i and 135i is a twin-turbo, i.e., two same size units each driven by exhaust from 3 cylinders. The bi-turbo diesel's two units are of different sizes, the smaller for quick response and the larger taking over at higher rpm for max power. But perhaps that is what you were trying to say and I misunderstood.

[kindtree]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

Actually I'm being very sane. The BMW brand is about lifestyle and sporting performance, not practicality. If you want practicality, go get a 4 cylinder minivan of some sort or a Subaru wagon. That's why hatchbacks don't sell in the US market, everybody either has a spare truck/van/SUV or access to one. BMWs are NOT utilitarian vehicles for schlepping a bunch of crap around, that's being foolish and ignorant my friend...that's demonstrating a comprehensive misunderstanding of what the the BMW brand is about.

Its that same mentality you demonstrate that dilutes a performance brand like BMW. Why the hell is there a 4 door M3? That product makes no sense. It only exists to pacify Joe Mittlemanager who, in the midst of his midlife crisis, thinks he needs to be seen in an M3 at the office, but still needs to drag his wife and kids around after hours, instead of being realistic about his lifestyle.

Umm fact: Four door E36's had better torsional rigidity than the coupes if they didn't have the fold down rear seats.... The coupe doors also had a cheaper feel to them, without the frame around the window, and a switch that is supposed to lower the window when the door is opened that goes out all the time. Not to mention the fact that some people (like me) like the way the sedan looks better. I guess all I'm saying is there are a lot more factors when buying a car than how much power it has and how many doors it has. If BMW just built two-door M cars and nothing else, it wouldn't last long at all....

And as far as performance goes, it's been proven that diesels can be fast, too, while maintaining much better MPG figures. Don't forget how much cheaper it is in most of the world as well.

[tilldayfalloff]

diesel would be my preference but if not the TT engine is just as efficent fuel wise as the NA engine so go for the proformance and tunning capablities

[kutch]

Tell yah what.
If a Diesel BMW is going to ruin the image, I'll gladly strip the blue mit white off, and enjoy the exceptional handling AND performance AND MPG all to myself...
Then, after a bit of software upgrades, I would almost bet that the only thing most gassers would see -is the rear bumper.

And if I come across any church buses...

[aesthetect]

^ haha great post and profile.

Originally Posted by Deutsch

As long as the cylinder count is four we won't be getting this engine or anything else like it. Interesting news anyway.

why do you say that? because there is traditionally no love in the luxury market for anything with 4 cylinders? to me, thats the best reasoning as to why we will actually get the 123d, it sure as shit wont feel like what the 4 cylinder haters are afraid of.. (no power at low rpms). id like to reiterate the point that was made earlier that this has the potential to completely change the US perception of diesels.

[Donkeyshins]

Originally Posted by Deutsch

As long as the cylinder count is four we won't be getting this engine or anything else like it. Interesting news anyway.

More the shame. Traditionally, the 4-cylinder BMWs have always handled much better than the 6-cylinder BMWs (going back to the E23), due to the engine weight is completely behind the front wheels in the 4 and is less than the 6-cylinder engine. And I'm not just speaking out of my a** here...I've driven 4-cylinder versions of the E23/E30/E36 models offered in the US and all of them handle better than their 6-cylinder counterparts (and I've driven most of them as well).

There's a reason why I chose a 318i over a 323i/325i/328i when I bought my (current) E36. Unfortunately, if BMW doesn't start offering 4-cylinder diesel cars, I may not invest in a new BMW and may just stick with my current ride...or see if I can sneak an M47 motor over from a UK wrecking yard and install it myself. :wink:

And with regards to the 'sporting' nature of BMW diesels, especially 4-cylinder diesels, keep in mind that BMW has successfully raced a 4-cylinder diesel, and it won races based upon speed, not mileage:

"If environmental friendliness doesn’t rev your engine, you may be interested to learn that a tweaked version of the 320d became the first diesel car ever to win a 24-hour endurance race, arguably motorsport’s toughest test. It won by an amazing six laps - not because it had to stop for fuel less often, as BMW are at pains to point out, but because it consistently posted the best lap times."
Motoring iAfrica.com

-D

[aesthetect]

"torque wins races, horsepower sells cars"

[mikeo]

I feel for, and agree with, all of you 4-cylinder diesel fans. However, it's just not going to happen in the forseeable future. BMWNA has repeatedly gone on record that the 6-cylinder will be the low-end engine for North America. When we finally get a diesel in a car (not SAV) it will be the twin turbo 6. Mark my words.

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by mikeo

I feel for, and agree with, all of you 4-cylinder diesel fans. However, it's just not going to happen in the forseeable future. BMWNA has repeatedly gone on record that the 6-cylinder will be the low-end engine for North America. When we finally get a diesel in a car (not SAV) it will be the twin turbo 6. Mark my words.

I think that you are partly right in that BMW will unlikely market 4-cylinder gas engines in the US again, but BMW tends to compare their diesels to larger gas engines (4 cylinder diesel to 6 cylinder gas and 6 cylinder diesel to 8 cylinder gas). So I think that a 4 cylinder diesel is a possibility.

BMW has stated that they will be bringing diesels into the US with the the X5 in 2008, so you're correct again. This will in all likelihood be the 6-cylinder TT diesel, so again you're spot on.

The other 5 series will then likely receive the diesel to followed by the 3 and hopefully the 1. Although a 135d sounds very nice, I think that a 123d is more likely. A 135i already has a cramped engine bay and weight issues, so I suspect that 135d would be even worse. If the US 1er gets a diesel, I would bet on a 4 cylinder. Of course there's that big "If".

I would love a 123d, but if I have to get a 135i or 128i my life will hardly be over. They all look to be great cars. :roundel:

IMHO BMW's diesel technology has the potential to really change some perceptions in the US. Time will tell.

[kutch]

^Yes, but a change of that nature -may not be in the best interests of a few very large corporations...?

[ibeam81]

Originally Posted by kutch

^Yes, but a change of that nature -may not be in the best interests of a few very large corporations...?

No doubt those are the same corporations lobbying for stricter diesel emission standards.

Oh well, we can still hope and besides a 135i is so good that I wouldn't even feel that cheated if the 123d was not available.

[larryn]

Every car model/engine combination that BMW sells in this country has to get certified to be allowed to sell here. That costs millions of dollars to do. There would be no return of investment in the certification process, likely only shifting sales from one BMW model to another (no net new sales), and they would lose a ton of money.

I don't see it happening without a huge campaign to push deisels in this country, along with biodeisel education. Biodeisel availability or not, deisels are viewed as dirty and rough by most in this country. I still think about those old Benz deisels with cakes of soot on the back bumper when I think about deisel cars.

[mikeo]

I agree it's going to be an uphill battle to change the viewpoint of most Americans regarding diesels. However, those of us that have rented current small diesels in Europe know that viewpoint is no longer applicable. My only concern is the US emisions requirement for adding the urea based mixture at regular intervals. That will slow the acceptance of diesels here--too bad.

[larryn]

The last diesel I drove in europe was an Alfa 156, which had the 2.4l tdi. Even with my wife and 2 kids, plus luggage for 4, that thing could sit there and burn the tires off the wheels. There wasn't a lot of top end, but that torque down low was a blast.

[hector]

if they bring over the 123d with a stick i'm in.

[kutch]

^IF they just bring it over, period -I'm in.

Also.
With the latest switch to a low sulfur fuel here in the states, my 3/4 ton 4x4 Cummins Turbo Diesel has NO black smoke that I've been able to spot.
No black around the tail end either.

Thats saying allot when I see tons of old decrepit cars that "somehow" pass emissions testing every year, belching smog more so than my 7000lb diesel truck...!

Which, by the way -averages 20-23 MPG and has enough torque to pull over a house and has been known to last over 500,000 miles before major engine rework is ever needed...

[aesthetect]

Originally Posted by larryn

Every car model/engine combination that BMW sells in this country has to get certified to be allowed to sell here. That costs millions of dollars to do. There would be no return of investment in the certification process, likely only shifting sales from one BMW model to another (no net new sales), and they would lose a ton of money.

I don't see it happening without a huge campaign to push deisels in this country, along with biodeisel education. Biodeisel availability or not, deisels are viewed as dirty and rough by most in this country. I still think about those old Benz deisels with cakes of soot on the back bumper when I think about deisel cars.

but with the current (whether you agree with it or not) state of "green" concern every auto maker is being pushed to develop environmentally friendly technology. yes the particulate matter out of a diesel is harsh, but with the emissions control technology available today they are, along with hybrids, the two potential technologies to start us on our way to clean sustainable transportation. and the public has expressed its concern and desire for this. the government is putting fleet restrictions on companies based on fuel consumption. BMW, like everybody else, is going to have to do something to show development in that area and even though im a proponent of hybrid technology (diesel hybrids, really) the torque, efficiency and simplicity of a compression-ignited engine along with bmw driving dynamics has me giddy.

sincerely,
friendly local 1addict treehugger

[PACIFICONE2003]

For those of us that have way too much free time at work, there was an interesting study completed by UBS Investment Research that focused on---- "Is diesel set to boom in the US?" dated May 24, 2007 vs. HybridsThe conclusion were:

��

Lowering CO2 emissions in the US: Is diesel or hybrid best?

US regulators may soon move to set higher fuel economy standards, accelerating
demand for fuel-efficient vehicles. At present, hybrid technology appears to be the
preferred route in the US, but diesel can deliver similar benefits at lower cost.
Diesel already dominates in Europe. The conditions may be right for a diesel boom
in the US, in our opinion.

��

A detailed cost/benefit analysis of the two technologies

This report is produced in collaboration with Ricardo, experts in automotive
technology. We have undertaken detailed analysis of the relative economy
benefits, cost penalties and legislative constraints of diesel and hybrid.

��

Diesel is a lower cost option; legislation - the key obstacle

Ricardo forecasts growth in both technologies, but expects diesel to prevail by
2012 (1.5 million units versus 1.2 million hybrids). Diesel's cost burden is lower
than hybrid's for similar fuel economy - even with the 'clean' technologies needed
to meet tough US emissions regulations (including California). Diesel's cost lead
over hybrid is most marked for larger vehicles (crossovers/SUVs).

��

Diesel is easier to invest in than hybrid: Key stock ideas

Diesel and hybrid growth should benefit key stocks within our coverage. Diesel
looks set to benefit the German OEMs (BMW, Mercedes, VW) and Honda, plus
key suppliers (BorgWarner, Denso, perhaps Continental). The only obvious hybrid

plays are Toyota and battery makers (JCI).

Basically, they predict 15% of the light duty vehicles sales will be made up of both Diesels and Hybrids by 2012.