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      07-11-2010, 06:00 AM   #1
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Brakes: 135i vs 1series M coupè

So it looks like the M will be getting the brakes from the M3.
Just a quick question: are they better?
Speaking from use on a track.
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      07-11-2010, 06:27 AM   #2
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Yes, they're better. For example, have a look at this German comparison between two tuner 135's (with the OEM brakes) and an M3: http://www.evotechschweiz.ch/files/p...1_M3vs135i.pdf


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      07-11-2010, 08:17 AM   #3
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      07-11-2010, 11:03 AM   #4
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Gerne.


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      07-11-2010, 11:59 AM   #5
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Since I don't speak German, could you please share the conclusions about the 2 brake systems?

My personal opinion is that the 135i calipers are better, but the M3 rotors are larger and can dissipate more heat. I think the 6-piston calipers from the 135i combined with larger rotors (M3's or others) would be best.

I also hope BMW recalibrates the servo assist - the 135i brakes are way overboosted and makes modulation very difficult. They should benchmark Porsche on this aspect of performance.
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      07-11-2010, 12:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grant View Post
Since I don't speak German, could you please share the conclusions about the 2 brake systems?
The report doesn't go into the details about the brakes. They're just mentioning that the standard 135i brakes of the Schnitzer (the one that comes closest to the M3) are suffering from termic instability.

Breaking distance at 100 km/h is identical between the M3 and the Schnitzer with warm brakes, at 200 km/h the difference is a bit more than 3 meters (in favor of the M3)
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      07-11-2010, 12:28 PM   #7
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Thanks!
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      07-11-2010, 12:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grant View Post
Since I don't speak German, could you please share the conclusions about the 2 brake systems?
Sure, my bad. The drove all cars on the Nürburgring GP track. Both the AC Schnitzer and the Evotech 135i suffered from overheating brakes while the M3 performed pretty much flawless. You're probably right that the key to this difference are the bigger and drilled brake discs.

Some quotes:

Quote:
About the M3:
Name:  m3_wheel.jpg
Views: 4475
Size:  34.2 KB
Behind the polished wheels lies
the M3's drilled secret of success.
Quote:
About the Evotech 135i:
Name:  135_wheels.jpg
Views: 4522
Size:  35.5 KB
As good as the wheels are looking,
the brakes aren't up to the task.
Quote:
About both 135's: The OEM brakes are prone to overheat and thus turn out to be both cars' Achilles' heel.

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      07-11-2010, 12:49 PM   #9
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      07-11-2010, 12:55 PM   #10
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135I < M3 and the 1 series M-coupe is > 135I.
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      07-11-2010, 03:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
I also hope BMW recalibrates the servo assist - the 135i brakes are way overboosted and makes modulation very difficult. They should benchmark Porsche on this aspect of performance.
Agreed. My 87 Carrera's brakes make these seem like a light switch and I don't like it. Some folks have reported more modulation with Cool Carbon's or some other alternative to the high initial bite stock pads...

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      07-27-2010, 01:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt View Post
So it looks like the M will be getting the brakes from the M3.
Just a quick question: are they better?
Speaking from use on a track.
The M3 brakes will melt like butter in the sun on track. You'll be lucky to put in 2-3 fast laps, if that. I installed brake ducts in mine and will post some reports from my next track outing, but they're shameful.

The M3 brakes might work better in a lighter car, but let's hope for the M3 rotors and 135i calipers/pad shape. BTW, if you look at how puny the M3 pads are, you'll understand their weak point immediately - the 135i pads are *huge* in comparison.
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      07-27-2010, 01:42 AM   #13
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yes, the drilled rotors are the supreme factor in the brake changes. they stock brakes are very strong in the beginning but heat is the reason for the "soft" feeling later on in track use.

So the drilled breaks are better in cooling down. Also, you could create a custom brake cooling duct with some elbow grease. downside is sometimes the rotors aren't drilled all the way though (not sure on m3), so when they wear down you can't flip them over.
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      07-27-2010, 02:39 AM   #14
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IMHO anyone investing an M3 or 1M that's serious about tracking will need to swap to AP racing or similar.
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      07-27-2010, 06:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDR_UK View Post
IMHO anyone investing an M3 or 1M that's serious about tracking will need to swap to AP racing or similar.
Simple mods! Install stainless lines theirs 6 of them. Castrol SRF or equivalent and a set of Pagid RS 19 or endless pads. Endless pads are $$$$$ but the manthey porsche won the 2008 and 2009 nurburgring 24hr race using the original discs and pads from the start of the race amazing
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      07-27-2010, 08:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDR_UK View Post
IMHO anyone investing an M3 or 1M that's serious about tracking will need to swap to AP racing or similar.
You want me to spend the equivalent of 10% of the cost of the car on brakes that only make sense on the track?

Or perhaps BMW could supply us some decent brakes instead.
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      07-27-2010, 08:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoturboz View Post
yes, the drilled rotors are the supreme factor in the brake changes. they stock brakes are very strong in the beginning but heat is the reason for the "soft" feeling later on in track use.

So the drilled breaks are better in cooling down. Also, you could create a custom brake cooling duct with some elbow grease. downside is sometimes the rotors aren't drilled all the way though (not sure on m3), so when they wear down you can't flip them over.
Very much doubt that the holes have a significant cooling effect - that's not the direction of the airflow. The holes help in other areas - immediate elimination of water film in the rain and pad glazing prevention. Oh and looks.

The reasons for the soft feel after hard track use are others:
- completely inadequate brake pad material
- marginally insufficient heat transfer capacity (this could be a combination of insufficient cooling flow and/or system sizing)

Someone mentioned Endless pads - any aftermarket pads you put on will work well on some tracks and not so well on others (due to the second reason above). Nurburgring is not as hard on brakes as some of the other, shorter tracks (not sure if this is an issue with US-designed tracks or if it's true in Europe as well). So throwing $800 or $1000 or however much they cost on a set of pads that may or may not give you satisfaction is a risk.

What it actually takes is for the manufacturer to design the brakes and size them appropriately for track use given the mass & speed of the car. Porsche does this in many of their models. Then it truly becomes a case of swapping for track pads and not having the slightest worry.
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      07-27-2010, 09:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You want me to spend the equivalent of 10% of the cost of the car on brakes that only make sense on the track?

Or perhaps BMW could supply us some decent brakes instead.
I did say for anybody serious about tracking.... personally if I buy a 1M I will invest in AP racing from the start...
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      07-27-2010, 10:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Very much doubt that the holes have a significant cooling effect - that's not the direction of the airflow. The holes help in other areas - immediate elimination of water film in the rain and pad glazing prevention. Oh and looks.

The reasons for the soft feel after hard track use are others:
- completely inadequate brake pad material
- marginally insufficient heat transfer capacity (this could be a combination of insufficient cooling flow and/or system sizing)

Someone mentioned Endless pads - any aftermarket pads you put on will work well on some tracks and not so well on others (due to the second reason above). Nurburgring is not as hard on brakes as some of the other, shorter tracks (not sure if this is an issue with US-designed tracks or if it's true in Europe as well). So throwing $800 or $1000 or however much they cost on a set of pads that may or may not give you satisfaction is a risk.

What it actually takes is for the manufacturer to design the brakes and size them appropriately for track use given the mass & speed of the car. Porsche does this in many of their models. Then it truly becomes a case of swapping for track pads and not having the slightest worry.
Nurburgring not hard on the brakes? Your car must have not been broken in when you did your laps? If you want to do back to back laps and you have to haul 3700lb car down from 150Mph on a couple occassions and from 100Mph triple digit speeds multiple times and you do more than 2 laps oh yah it's hard on the brakes the track is 12 miles long. and if you plan on attacking the track it's very hard on the brakes. I mentioned pagid and endless pads because they are rotor friendly and last a very long time. Sure there are better pads out there for less money but when you consider are you racing for money no. So why spend the extra dough on rotors when Pagid or endless work very good on our factory rotors and increase the braking performance by 50% compared to stock pads and won't melt or delaminate. Just my opinion. I also do multiple track sessions at SPA and Nurburgring GP track and the Pagids RS 19 hold up quite well my friend has endless in his coupe and they last quite a bit longer than the pagids and supply equal stopping power.
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      07-27-2010, 10:59 AM   #20
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or you can get the bmw performance rotors and keep our stock calipers and have the best of both worlds...
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      07-27-2010, 11:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
You want me to spend the equivalent of 10% of the cost of the car on brakes that only make sense on the track?

Or perhaps BMW could supply us some decent brakes instead.
Let's be honest here... what percentage of M3s do you think actually hit a track? It isn't until the car is 10 years old and becoming an inexpensive dedicated track toy that these things will matter. I bet 90% of them will never see a track in their lifetime.
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      07-27-2010, 03:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Let's be honest here... what percentage of M3s do you think actually hit a track? It isn't until the car is 10 years old and becoming an inexpensive dedicated track toy that these things will matter. I bet 90% of them will never see a track in their lifetime.
It's probably small - but not non-existent. So at the very least, BMW should offer an M-track brake upgrade for $2-3k and probably 50% of buyers would opt for it.

Just like Porsche offers brake upgrades on their cars (even when the cars don't really need them).

BMW is missing out on opportunities to relive their customers of serious chunks of cash...
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